Skip to main content

View Diary: Don't go to church? God hates you and Denny's does too (240 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  And yet, you haven't answered the simple (0+ / 0-)

    genuine equivalency question - if the same restaurant had offered a 10% discount to heterosexual couples - and required a marriage certificate to prove it - would you be dismissing it so cavalierly?

    One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

    by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:36:33 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You're posing a lot of hypotheticals (0+ / 0-)

      And you're assuming things not in evidence. Show me where they've refused to honor the discount based upon religious views.

      As I pointed out elsewhere you can pick up a church bulletin pretty easily and you don't have to go to a service or even have faith to get one.

      All they're doing is using a church bulletin as a form of coupon. There are no religious tests to obtain one unless you try to start a scene in a church.

      I still think you're reading far more into the promotion than is there and it's due to your own biases.

      When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

      by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:51:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So, your answer is for me to "pass" (0+ / 0-)

        Do you tell gays facing discrimination to pretend they are "straight" as well?

        What if the coupon were available to all heterosexual couples that brought in a picture of themselves at their wedding?

        Would you tell gays to pose with a friend of the opposite sex for a picture, so they can qualify? After all, what's the big deal about being in the closet, right? Just pass as the "right" kind of person.

        One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

        by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:58:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not the same thing (0+ / 0-)

          You're posing questions that cross the border between reality and absurd.

          Having a church bulletin is not proof of anything. You don't have to be religious or even have faith to get one. The bar is really, really, low on it and I'll bet if you asked for the discount you'd probably get it without presenting a bulletin. I'll bet just bringing the flyer would work just fine.

          You're simply assuming it won't work without any real evidence to back up that assumption.

          They're just trying to drum up some Sunday lunch business, that's all. Why does everything have to be thoroughly scrutinized under an electron microscope for even the slightest hint of perceived discrimination? It's getting so people can't even enjoy a crap meal without some immature hypersensitive nut going on about how s/he is being discriminated against because they aren't getting a discount someone else got. Grow up for crying out loud!

          If you don't like the promo, don't eat at Denny's. It's not like they're the only source of nutrition in the world and everyone is forced to eat there.

          When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

          by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 04:28:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I’m posing uncomfortable questions (0+ / 0-)

            that you do not want to address, because they expose a gap in your ideological consistency.

            The issue isn't Denny's, the issue is the response of people like you - which represent the majority of the public - to cultural exclusion of atheists.

            When I ask you to make a simple intellectual experiment and judge your reaction to an identical exclusion of gays, you refuse to address it.

            Because you know you would be far less tolerant of that kind of cultural discrimination.

            And the same thing goes if, in fact, they made it churches only and excluded Jews. You'd be far more concerned - but you won't admit it, because you won't even address the issue front-on.

            This is only an issue for me and others because it is indicative of a cultural pattern of socially acceptable exclusion of atheists, not because of the isolated case of a few pennies off a crappy junk food restaurant. It's true in the Boy Scouts, it's true in the military in terms of access to social services, it's true in government employment where Eagle Scouts are automatically hired at a higher starting pay grade - an opportunity explicitly denied to atheists, it's true when public figures stereotype and denigrate atheists as a class in ways that would be unacceptable when targeted at any other minority in America, it's true in many other ways every day of our lives.

            You keep making arguments based on the triviality of eating at Denny's - but, of course, that isn't the issue at all - if Denny's were barring colored people at the door, you'd hardly tell them not to worry about it, since "it's not like they're the only source of nutrition in the world and everyone is forced to eat there".

            So, clearly the issue isn't how important Denny's is in America's nutritional composition.

            The issue is that you tolerate cultural exclusion of atheists in a way you would not tolerate cultural exclusion of any other group.

            And the issue is that so does the rest of America - including most who call themselves "progressive" and "Democrats".

            I've tried to engage you in a frank open discussion about the broader issue. It clearly makes you uncomfortable, as evidenced by your stubborn refusal to respond to the substance of the broader argument.

            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

            by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:03:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They're not uncomfortable questions (0+ / 0-)

              They're questions that border on insane because no one is doing any of them. They don't happen in the real world. That makes them irrelevant.

              Prove to me there's real discrimination going on. Show me someone who was denied service or the discount based upon religious beliefs THEN I'll get behind you. Until then you're just speculating and imposing your own biases upon the object of your derision.

              For all we know the whole thing could be a hoax designed to get people to stop eating at Denny's.

              When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

              by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:11:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Atheists are regularly discriminated against (0+ / 0-)

                there is ample documentation of discrimination in child custody cases, in adoption cases, in employment, particularly in school districts, as well as institutional discrimination in the form of disparate compensation in federal employ, use of taxpayer subsidies for organizations that bar atheists, discrimination in the military, and many more instances.

                In addition, studies show that atheists are the least trusted, most hated minority in America  - even right after 9/11, bigotry against Muslims was measured as less than anti-atheist sentiment.

                Despite continued legal discrimination against same-sex couples, gays serve in all areas of public office, elected and appointed, including the White House staff as well as Senators and House members.

                At the local level, representation is even more prominent.

                Yet no open atheist can hope to campaign for and be elected to public office in the US - and neither major party would ever endorse an atheist candidate.

                As an atheist, I have to be honest with my politically aware and engaged children and admit to them that public office is likely closed to them, if they choose to be honest and open about their religious preferences. If they were gay or lesbian, no problem - but atheist! Forget about it.

                My family has experienced discrimination in many different places - overt, explicit discrimination, not hypothetical.

                Atheists are tolerated as long as we remain in the closet. The moment we speak up we are targeted for the most venomous assault. And even public figures can engage in it with no repercussions.

                Unless you with to argue that atheists are, in actual fact, an inferior species - and, as an atheist, albeit an accommodationist, I hope and trust you wouldn't go so far - then the only rationale for such widespread hatred of atheists - a negative attitude that crosses political boundaries, economic boundaries, gender boundaries, sexual preference boundaries, religious boundaries - the only explanation can be that we as a society tolerate and indulge that particular form of bigotry, while rejecting others.

                Again, this particular Denny's isn't the issue. The issue is the contortions people go through to prove there is no discrimination, in contrast to what the response would be if any other group were excluded save atheists.

                Every time you hear, "god-fearing" used as praise, and you don't speak up, you are empowering and complicit with perpetuating negative attitudes about atheists.

                Every time you hear "no atheists in foxholes", and laugh it off, you are part of the problem.

                Just like, every time I here a gamer in one of the games I produced say, "don't be so gay", and don't use it as an opportunity to open a mind, I am part of the problem.

                There is no need for such a compassion and empathy deficit here. I am often puzzled when the most militant activists for one cause or another feel compelled to aggressively reject the legitimacy of someone else's claim.

                I've never suggested that discrimination against atheists makes discrimination against gays any less of an issue, and I've never made any claim the two are comparable.

                The analogies I've offer as thought experiments are not "false equivalencies", as you claim - they are meant to expose a fundamental hypocrisy between how our society treats all forms of discrimination, vs how we treat discrimination against atheists.

                Even in a hypothetical situation where the nature of the discrimination were exactly the same, the truth is that no one here would react the same way to an overt case of discrimination against atheists vs discrimination against Jews, for example.

                Don't believe me?

                How many times has a candidate for office been hammered on all sides for membership in a private club that excludes Jews? It's the virtual kiss of death, politically.

                Now, ask yourself - how many times as a candidate - even a progressive Lefty candidate - gotten into hot water for being an Eagle Scout, for participation in an organization that explicitly bars atheists?

                If the Boy Scouts ever comes up, it's always in the context of barring gays - not barring atheists.

                There is a lot of outrage over bigots who seek to get gay teachers fired. But, there are plenty of cases where bigots try to get atheist teachers fired - and we can never find a single faith leader to condemn it.

                There is a double standard, and my comments meant to expose it.

                You keep harping on Denny's all you like. That won't change the underlying reality, even if you deny it or are fortunate enough to live in circumstances where you and your family don't face discrimination because of your religious preference.

                One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:34:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                  Atheists are routinely discriminated against, however I don't consider a Denny's discount to be that big of a deal especially when there's nothing keeping me from getting a church bulletin or asking for the discount anyway.

                  In other words we have bigger fish to fry than a stupid 10% discount at Denny's that no one can show ever resulted in any real discrimination.

                  If a business discriminates against me for any reason they won't get my custom. More often than not they have competition who will be more than happy to provide the same goods or services and won't care about whatever status I happen to have.

                  When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                  by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:43:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you believe that is the prevailing attitude? (0+ / 0-)

                    Let's try this another way. Let's assume you view all expressions of prejudice with equal opposition, and react to all manifestations of prejudice with the same response, no matter who the target of the discrimination is.

                    Do you believe that is the prevailing response in America?

                    Do you think people who object to expressions of prejudice against gays generally have the same reaction when they encounter expressions of prejudice against atheists?

                    Do you believe the public response to a public figure denigrating gays would be the same as if a public figure denigrated atheists? How about a public figure denigrating Jews? Muslims? Women? People with disabilities?

                    It is not legal to discriminate in employment against members of the LGBT community, or against women, or against Jews or Muslims, of against people with disability - or, against atheists.

                    Do you claim that, when members of the public learn about illegal discrimination against an individual member of these groups, that - whether they are a right wing bigot, a left wing progressive, or anyone in between - that,whatever form of discrimination they condemn in their worldview - do you claim that it is common if not ubiquitous to react with the same vehement rejection to discrimination against atheists?

                    Let's assume you are the exception to the rule, and it's all the same to you. Can you at least acknowledge that you are, in fact, the exception to the rule - as every public survey on the matter has demonstrated?

                    One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                    by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:55:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The thing is (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      exotrip

                      You haven't proved there's prejudice at Denny's. All you've done is shown your own.

                      When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                      by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 07:05:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You never respond directly to challenges (0+ / 0-)

                        doesn't reflect well on your intellectual honesty. Clearly, you have no interest in engaging in honest debate, you just keep reiterating the same statement over and over, oblivious of the other conversations taking place all over this thread.

                        We're done. You're more interested in talking than listening, in stating than debating, in merely asserting rather than helping others understand.

                        Call me all the names you want. Ironically, as you continue to complain that I and others are making assumptions about the Denny's manager, you continue to make assumptions about my alleged prejudice and that of others, based on far less evidence.

                        One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                        by RandomActsOfReason on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:52:33 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Your challenges (0+ / 0-)

                          are meaningless because they are not based in anything resembling reality, and yes I did respond. I said I would not give any business I felt was discriminatory my custom. Most businesses know it's not good business to practice discrimination.

                          You've not proved Denny's was actively engaged in discrimination. Neither you nor G2 can point to anything other than a poorly worded flyer. By your definition the senior menu is also discriminatory since age is also a protected class and offering discounts to people over a certain age is age discrimination.

                          It would be discrimination if they put a sign on their door saying "no service to non-christians" and demanded people say "The Lord's Prayer" from memory in order to be seated. Offering a discount to churchgoers is just another promotion which isn't any different than offering discounts to people who belong to auto clubs or have a passport from another country. In the end you're just trying to manufacture some outrage where there isn't really anything about which to be outraged. That's a tactic the right uses and we should be better than that.

                          When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                          by Cali Techie on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:22:59 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

            •  But to answer your question (0+ / 0-)

              If in some alternate universe the questions you posed were rooted in reality, I would simply take my business where it was wanted. End of story. If they don't want my money that's their problem.

              When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

              by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:15:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site