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  •  Can someone help (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric Nelson, MTmofo

    me find the info to refute this tired meme?

    the top 5% of earners pay over half, I think around 60% of all taxes paid. And the top 1% of earners pay more than the bottom 95% combined.

    I know that this is some kind of numbers slight-of-hand but can't find the refutation of it. Thanks in advance.

    If the future's looking dark, we're the ones who have to shine... Though we live in trying times we're the ones who have to try

    by Purple Priestess on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 10:29:07 PM PDT

    •  Well (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Purple Priestess, johnny wurster

      Considering it is correct, there isn't much to refute.

      The top 10% pay 70% of all income taxes against 45% of income. (taxfoundation.org) So, maybe there are other ways of looking at this, but there's nothing to refute here.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 10:35:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  of course, income taxes aren't the only taxes (4+ / 0-)

        and of course most other taxes are regressive, not progressive.

        And of course the richest 10% hold a far larger share of the total wealth (way over half) than they do the total share of income, since many of them don't HAVE any employment wage or salary income. They live off what the IRS terms, with wonderful honesty, "unearned income"--interest, stock dividends, and such.  They don't NEED a job, dahling.

        They get most of the wealth.  They should pay most of the taxes. And if they don't like it, they can always move to Europe if they think they can get a better deal there.  (shrug)

        Goddamn crybabies.

        •  Top 10% don't live like that (0+ / 0-)

          I know people in the top 10% of income, a lot of them live comfortably but moderately frugally. Particularly at the lower end of that spectrum.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 06:06:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  perhaps you're not aware that the top 10% live (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JeffW

            better than the other 90%.

            I find it amusing that you'd even attempt to convince everyone that the rich aren't really any better off than the rest of us.

            If the top 10% aren't happy with their station in life, perhaps they'd prefer to exchange places with someone in the bottom 10%.

            Fucking crybabies.

            •  I didn't (0+ / 0-)

              I'm merely pointing out that the top 10% of income is comfortable but not hookers and coke comfortable. People in 90th percentile in a high cost area do the same thing you do, get up for work every day, worry about money (sometimes), sometimes live with roommates, etc.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 07:25:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  too funny. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JeffW

                Like I said, they're entirely free to exchange places with someone in the bottom 10% if they think they have it so bad.  

                It is truly amusing to listen to you plead poverty on behalf of people who own more than 90% of everyone else does.

                My heart bleeds for the poor little darlings. Sniffle, sob, boo hoo hoo.

                Fucking crybabies.

                •  Yeah, well... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  soros

                  ...spend years and lots of effort and debt
                  acquiring a specialized skill set, then see how you feel about someone telling you that you make too much money. Most people in the top 10% aren't masters of the universe, they're doctors and lawyers and engineers who had to work very hard to get where they are.

                  But no, they're just 'rich' people who dont deserve it, I get it.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 09:24:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you mean like firefighters and police? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JeffW

                    Those guy that you are bitching and complaining get too much money?

                    BTW, wealthy business owners don't need any special skills or talents.  They simply hire people who do.

                    You can wave your arms about the doctors and lawyers all you want--they're just minnows, and they make none of the economic decisions, own none of the major industries, and employ virtually nobody. (Anyway, as corporate chains buy up more and more of the legal and medical industry, the self-employed doctor or lawyer will be a thing of the past--they'll be common employees no different than the janitor, a bit more highly paid perhaps, but hired hacks nevertheless, and I doubt their income will remain the same.)

                     I'm not interested in the minnows.  I want the sharks. The ones who don't even HAVE jobs because they don't need them.

    •  the refutation is simple------- (4+ / 0-)

      The top 5% of earners pay more than half the taxes because they own more than half the fucking wealth and get more than half the fucking income.

    •  Jeffrey Sachs @ Huffpo (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Purple Priestess, basquebob, JeffW

      Huffington Post

      I direct readers to the "Summary of Latest Federal Income Tax Data" presented by the Tax Foundation, October 6, 2010, No. 249. There the reader will find the data they need to discover how the Journal has gotten it all wrong.

      Consider the top 1% of taxpayers. Even in a year that the Wall Street Journal acknowledges "was a bad year for the economy and thus for tax receipts," the top 1% reported to the IRS an Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) of $1,685 billion dollars, amounting to 20% of the total reported household income that year, and around 12 percent of GDP. On this sum they paid $392 billion in taxes, an average tax rate of 23%.

      The Journal writes that it is impossible to get enough income out of the top 1% to close the deficit, and invites us to undertake the "thought experiment" of taxing all of the income this group. In other words, the Journal claims that even the total income of the richest taxpayers wouldn't close the deficit. This claim is nonsense....

      And Jeffrey dispels the myth that Ann coulter loves to push: 'Even if you stole all the money from the rich, it wouldn't come close to ending the deficit'.
       Wrong according to the author. It would, many times over. Not that anyone has proposed that, which is the lie that Coulter wants to instill in peoples minds.

      It's worth a read.

      •  Thank you, everyone. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eric Nelson

        You've been very helpful. I shall tackle the offending post tomorrow ;)

        If the future's looking dark, we're the ones who have to shine... Though we live in trying times we're the ones who have to try

        by Purple Priestess on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 11:32:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  taxes (4+ / 0-)

          You could ask why so many of our citizens make such a small sum of money. When you take 30% of such low wages, it doesn't add up to a large percentage of the total when billionaires are in the mix. Do they want to take all of the lower and middle class wages and leave the with nothing so it will be more even?

          America is so not like her hype.

          by OLinda on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 12:11:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  taxes 2 (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Purple Priestess

          Purple, the point is that individually, the wealthy pay less of a percentage of their money in taxes. But, when it is added all up it is a large percentage of the total.

          For example, a person with 1 million taxable income from dividends automatically deposited to their bank account will pay 15% of that in taxes.

          The secretary making $32,000 will pay 30% in taxes. The secretary pays more of her income in taxes!

          But, 15% of one million is a lot more than 30% of 32,000. So, when you add up all the taxes received from the wealthiest, it is more money than the tax money from the rest of the people.

          America is so not like her hype.

          by OLinda on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 01:02:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  taxes 3 (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Purple Priestess

          So, continuing with that example. If we want the total taxes raised to be even, the same percentage of the total for everyone, this is what we could do.

          Let's take even more from the secretary making $32,000. Let's take 50% of her salary in taxes. That will be $16,000.

          So, for each person to pay the same percentage of the total raised, the oil and gas man with the million dollars in dividends needs to also pay $16,000.

          That way the total taxes raised is $32,000 and the top half of the population (the oil man) and the bottom half (the secretary) each paid 50% of the total ($16,000).

          This will be a tax rate of 1.6% for the millionaire, and 50% for the secretary. Ahh, so much more fair!!

          America is so not like her hype.

          by OLinda on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 01:32:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  when we consider the massive share of wealth (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Purple Priestess, JeffW

        that the uber-rich grab for themselves, we should also keep in mind how very small in number the uber-wealthy actually are.

         Some figures I found whole poking around in Google:

        According to the IRS, you only need an income of $380,000 to be in the top 1% of taxpayers.

        An income of $1.8 million gets you in the top 0.1% (one-tenth of one percent)--a club containing just 140,000 taxpayers. But even THAT won't put you in the realm of the REAL uber-rich. You need at least $10 million a year to make it to the top 0.01% (one one-hundredth of one percent) of taxpayers--an exclusive group of 14,000 individuals.

        Want to make it to the elite of the elite--the god-like people at the top of Olympus? In 2009, there were 72 people in America who made more than $50 million.  That's 72 individuals out of a population of 308 million. Seventy-two.

    •  I think it's a tricky statement. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OLinda, Purple Priestess

      "All taxes" as is sales taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes etc., then the answer is no. If we are talking about just federal income taxes then, maybe.

      "Capitalism has defeated communism. It is now well on its way to defeating democracy."
- David Korten

      by basquebob on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 12:06:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's the difference between "wealth" and "income" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, basquebob

        In the US, income can be taxed, but wealth cannot be.  That is of course a wonderful thing for the uber-rich, who have most of the wealth, but not most of the job income (they don't NEED any job, dahling). Most of their wealth comes from non-job "unearned income" like capital gains, which are not taxed in the same manner as job income (but SHOULD be).

        But it's always amusing to hear the uber-wealthy bitch and moan about how bad they got it. Poor little dears might even have to sell off a Bentley or two to pay their taxes. Sniffle, sob, boo hoo hoo.

        Perhaps they'd be happier moving to Europe to see if they can get a better tax deal there.

        Fucking crybabies.

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