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View Diary: Open thread for night owls: 'Wage theft' frame could spotlight truth about attacks on pensions (143 comments)

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  •  Re (0+ / 0-)
    Or do you solve your own crimes, put out your own house fires, and issue your own drivers license.

    I can't get these services from employees who get 401ks instead of pensions?

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 06:01:09 AM PDT

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    •  well of course you can, just as you can also (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW
      I can't get these services from employees who get 401ks instead of pensions?

      get toasters from Chinese workers who are paid two cups of rice a day, or get old-age support from privatized stock-investment plans instead of Social Security. (shrug) Whether we CAN is not the question--the question is why we would WANT to. But then, removing government entirely and replacing everything with minimum-wage private work is the libertarian ideal, ain't it----ohhh, I forgot that libertarians are against the minimum wage, too.

      What free-market fans tend to forget is that employee wages and benefits are not determined by the impersonal laws of supply and demand--they are determined by the ability and willingness of employees to fight for better wages and benefits.  And that makes libertarians apoplectic with indignation.

      •  Re (0+ / 0-)
        And that makes libertarians apoplectic with indignation.

        Lol. All public sector activity can only exist because of private sector activity. What makes some of us 'apoplectic' is public sector employees getting pay and benefits denied to the private sector (e.g. pensions). The private sector doesn't have the ability to politically agitate for higher wages (at the expense of the private sector). We just get laid off.

        they are determined by the ability and willingness of employees to fight for better wages and benefits

        No employer can be forced to locate operations in any particular place. So by all means fight, but don't be surprised when people pack up and leave. Look at Illinois for a prime example of this effect.

        But then, removing government entirely and replacing everything with minimum-wage private work is the libertarian ideal, ain't it----ohhh, I forgot that libertarians are against the minimum wage, too.

        It is the duty of all public officials to contract for services in the most cost effective manner possible (e.g. the best spread of services versus cost). Sometimes this entails outsourcing services (why do most corporations not run their own cafeterias?), sometimes it involves doing it yourself insourced. But the duty of the public official is to the taxpayers, not to public employees, just as private corporate officers have duties to the shareholders.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 07:18:20 AM PDT

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        •  and vice versa (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW
          All public sector activity can only exist because of private sector activity.

          Civilization itself is impossible without government.  And government requires public employees.

          No matter how hard you wave your arms and tell us that "government is communistic!!!", you can't get around that simple fact.

          Libertarianism is, at its core, fundamentally anti-democracy. Libertarians do not want laws to be made by democratically-elected governments---they want a society with no laws at all other than self-interest, where no one answers to any authority at all except one's own. It is the equivilent of the teenager who, when told to clean his room, shouts at his mom "You can't tell me what to do !!!!!!!"  Um, yes we can. (shrug)

          "Every man for himself" is simply not a workable plan for a functional society. That is why libertarianism is, as a political movement, an utter nonentity everywhere in in the world except the US, and is only a lunatic fringe there.

          No employer can be forced to locate operations in any particular place. So by all means fight, but don't be surprised when people pack up and leave.

          Let them leave.  We'll organize them wherever they go.  No matter how far away they move, they still need employees.  Employees who are just as capable of organizing to fight for better wages and benefits as the last ones. The planet is on ly so big, and sooner or later the corporados will run out of places to pack up and leave to.

          •  Don't worry, Lenny... (0+ / 0-)

            ...Rahmbo will prove your point fast enough. He's laying off 680 City of Chicago workers this week, from an already decimated City workforce. Looks like I got out at the right time.

            Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

            by JeffW on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 10:10:52 AM PDT

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