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  •  WeNeed3rdParty is a liar, a riposte. (4.00)
    It is interesting to observe how someone as ignorant of history as WeNeed3rdParty accuses DHinMI of being a liar. DHinMI's account is much close to the historical truth. WeNeed3rdParty is basicly reproducing the Tsarist (and later Soviet) propaganda "facts" which were used to justify the rule of Moscow over these territories.

    WeNeed3rdParty said: Since 10th century Ukraine was part of Russia... Kiev is the Russian City...

    First of all, there was no state called "Russia" (or to be precise "Rossija" from the Greek ) at that time. That name came retroactively into use around the late 15th century. The relation was exactly opposite to what WeNeed3rdParty would like to claim. If anything, today's Kievans could claim that the Moscow territory should belong to them (but they don't).

    The word "Russ" means as much as "country" and is used like the suffix "landia" in English. There are circa 15 different historical territories called Russ: Black Russ, Red Russ, Kievan Russ, Wlodimiersk-Suzdalsk Russ, Halick-Wolynsk Russ, etc.

    Kiev was THE state center which ruled over Russ territories as far as the area of Moscow (which did not exist then yet). Kievan Russ broke up after 1054 into a group of separate principalities. The first historical account of the town Moscow is dated 1147 when it was an insignificant trading outpost.

    There is no political or state continuity between what is called Kievan Russ and Moscow's Russia. In the 13th century (as late as 1245) all the Russ countries were subdued by the Mongols.  In the 14th, when the Mongol rule became weak and formal, local principalities started to establish their authority over the surrounding lands. For example, the "Moscow principality" (later called "Grand Duchy of Moscow".), annexed and even later sacked what was the Novgorod Republic ( a democratic state). During that time Kiev was an integral part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

    In the year 1493 Ivan III of Moscow demanded for the first time in history that the envoys of other principalites title him gosudar' wsieja Rusi ( ruller of All-Russia). Combined with a religious narrative this became the basis of a Pan-Russian ideology, which justified the conquest of all Russ countries by Moscow. (into a Rossija). The town Kiev became a part of Rossija through conquest as late as 1667 (or as WeNeed3rdParty would prefer to say "reunited"). That's a gap of seven centuries.

    To use a historical  analogy, "Kievan Russ" relates to (Moscow) "Rossija", as the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" relates to the "Roman Empire". It's basicly a naming scheme to legalise the conquest of the Russ lands of the former one, as is common in history. (another similar example would be the "Prussia" scheme).  

    It's also important to note that the southern half of Ukraine (bordering to the black sea, the Krym) was not a Russ country. The trouble with this territory is that it was the passing area for countless tribes during the "Migration of Peoples":  Bulgars, Huns, Avars, Petschings, etc. Therefore it's difficult to say who was there first. It did not come under Moscow's occupation until the 18th century . WeNeed3rdParty did not mention that the Tsars decided to call the Ukrainian teritories "Little Rossija" in order to russify it.

    WeNeed3rdParty said: Stalin killed 60 millions of people (mostly russians)

    Yes, he also cordoned off Ukraine in the years 1932-33 and deliberately let 6 million Ukrainians starve. That's how much the Ukraine can rely on Moscow governance.

    WeNeed3rdParty said:  Most people in Eastern and South Ukraina either Russians or Russian-speaking and Russian-minded

    How did they get there in the first place? That's only because of the Russification process and because of the deportation of the original inhabitants (Ukrainians, Tatars, Kozakhs)  into the Kazakhstan.

    •  Thanks Marcin (none)
      good to see you around here!
      Thanks for the corrections on the above post.
    •  MarcinGomulka as history rewriter and ...liar (none)
      I simply did not have time to follow all this
      anti-russian propaganda and bullshit. But today
      is a holiday and I found this bullshit
      You can check all lies of this (sounds like a
      polish or west-ukrainian Rewriter) poster in any
      text book and encyclopedia. Connections between
      all russian "states" never interrupted (Gomulka
      said 600 years!, it was all Rurikoviches Princes,
      any middle-grade student suppose to know that.

      He even invented the lie about RUSS as
      equivalent of LAND word. Very creative
      propagandist, this is something new I never saw
      He is calling the process of resistance and
      unification of Russian people as a conquest.
      This is very funny especially when he is saying
      that the conquest of Kiev by Lithania was really
       ... an integration - HAHA - read the book,
      Mr. Dvoechnik (In US means his GPA was below 2.0).

      Zhars was enemies of all people so whatever they
      said it is not my fault, but this shitty
      propagandist trying to connect me to all shit
      Zhars, Mongols, Kommunists and other enemies
      did to RUSSIAN people. This lier even
      avoided a simple explanation how so called
      "Ukrainians" suddenly appeared in Ukraina?
      From air? Guess what: they were russian already
      there and also russian servants running from
      slavery in central Russia (and EVERYBODY who
      can read know that). It is long running
      propaganda and lies from Poland, Lithuania and
      other enemies of Russian People trying to
      brainwash (based on words of this Gomulka guy,
      they succeeded), divide and concur the great
      RUSSIAN NATION. Shame on you, lying bastard,
      I do not have time to read your lies anymore and
      will not waste my time to respond and/or
      correct your RATSHIT. Whoever wants the
      truth, just go the library and read the real
      RUSSIAN history, written by russian historians
      and not by pseudo-historians from Poland, Europe
      or West, who is trying to rewrite history
      fo many hundreds years just to make russian
      NATION less great, because they HATE it.

      He even trying to split 6 millions people who
      died in Ukraina in 1932-33 from total of
      60 millions of Stalin's victims and trying to
      call them Ukrainins after their death.
      Shame, shame, shame on you.

      Last but least: he is calling Russians in eastern
      and southern Ukraina people who was russified.
      ANd he is lying that in the same moment when
      so called "Ukrainian" government in Kiev
      trying to "UKRAINIANIZED" ALL population
      of these RUSSIAN territories AGAINST their Will.
      This I think in his history book will be
      call "integration" -haha again.
      All I can say you really asking for trouble
      and you will get it (based on history I know).

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