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View Diary: HCR battle: Your Basic Assumptions Are Wrong (57 comments)

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  •  Well this is one of the more (5+ / 0-)

    comprehensive and long-winded defensives of Obama.

    It many cases it asks us to not believe our own eyes. We know what a pol looks likes when he's fighting for something. Barack ("just a sliver") Obama isn't fighting for the PO. And that perhaps is a defensible position, and this diarist should probably defend it as opposed to trying to make us think our our eyes and ears are lying.

    The issue isn't, has never been, whether he "supports" a PO; the question is the depth of support, and whether he'll fight for it. He ain't so far.

    But this diary in useful in arguing against the absurd notion that Obama doesn't hold sway in Congress, and thus the proof will be in the pudding. When the time comes, will he apply pressure on progressives to support a bill without a PO, or will he pressure corporate Dems to support a PO?

    •  If he drops public option in conference (4+ / 0-)

      I'll be upset. If he drops it in the Senate only to get it out of the senate and into conference, then I have no problem with that. What happens in conference will prove the depth of the support you talk about.

    •  Proof is in the pudding (6+ / 0-)

      They're either going to deliver a solid public option or they aren't. If they don't, then there will be serious repercussions with a large swath of the base - and rightfully so.

      In the meantime this changes absolutely nothing with my tactics. Calls. Calls. Calls. Calls. Calls.

      "I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law" -Obama

      by heart of a quince on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 07:35:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, I'm asking you (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askew, elmo, Luetta

      to look at what's right in front of your eyes.

      And nowhere did I say that Obama didn't hold sway in Congress. He does; apparently you missed the part where the House basically came up with bills that very closely modeled the guidelines that Obama wanted and the campaign plan that he campaigned on. But like any president, that sway is limited. Just look at the Blue Dogs. Those Blue Dogs that support him on this tend to be ones who represent districts that Obama won. Those who don't tend to represent districts that Obama didn't win.

      But of course, I've come to expect you to twist the words of anyone who doesn't share you viewpoint or to just ignore what is actually written.

      •  ??? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, joanneleon, Ezekial 23 20

        Maybe you should read what I wrote.

        But this diary in useful in arguing against the absurd notion that Obama doesn't hold sway in Congres

        I said, quite clearly, that the useful thing about this diary is that it counters the notion, advanced by Ygelsias and others, that Obama is a helpless bystander as Congress considers bills.

        A little advice: instead of writing these 3000-word diaries lecturing netroots activists from on high about what is allegedly going on--Obama is better than you say!--contradicting what we know to be true, start using your insider's position to name names. Then you might do some good.

        •  Well, have you ever considered that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elmo, Luetta

          I know what I'm talking about and that maybe you should take my advice seriously?

          And I don't think that Yglesias and others have been trying to say that Obama is a helpless bystander. My point still stands. There is a limit to what any president can do to convince members of Congress to go along with what they want. Obama can twist as many arms as he wants for the public option, but there are going to be senators who say no.

          •  Substantiate this (0+ / 0-)

            and perhaps people will take you more seriously.

            Well, have you ever considered that I know what I'm talking about and that maybe you should take my advice seriously?

            Just telling us that you know what you're talking about isn't really enough, Newsie.  It's not so much that I doubt you, it's that I have no idea what to base the decision on.  You're hinting at things.

            There are a lot of people who also know what they are talking about and they substantially disagree with your arguments here.

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