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View Diary: The belly of the anti-science beast (150 comments)

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  •  's ok, go there (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grollen, shpilk, dotalbon

    I'm not afraid :)

    I'm listening.  Honest.

    Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

    by mem from somerville on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 07:46:28 PM PDT

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    •  Can I ask you a question about the article, then? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dotalbon

      Though a lot of the technical stuff was over my head, I got the general gist of what the author was saying.

      One vaccine that really bugs, me, though, not because it's "toxic" or too much for our system, is the Hep B,vaccine.

      I've never gotten a satisfactory reason why we need to vaccinate babies against Hep B.  Your article really doesn't address that, and it's part of my problem.

      I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about it.

      I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

      by coquiero on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 07:55:34 PM PDT

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      •  Here's a website to start (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shpilk, murrayewv, G2geek, coquiero

        http://www.cdc.gov/...

        But since it's from the Center for Disease Control, you may dismiss the statements out of hand. Although I'm still curious why you would do that.  Do you think the CDC has a hidden agenda of some kind?

        It is scarcely possible to conceive of the laws of motion if one looks at them from a tennis ball's point of view. (Brecht)

        by dotalbon on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:04:25 PM PDT

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        •  Well, I don't think the CDC lies out of hand (0+ / 0-)

          It's not like I think they're some evil institution or anything, but don't you think it's ok to have a healthy disdain for any government institution?

          I see that they say that Hep B is more common in children than adults.  If I know that no adult in my family, or no caretaker is infected, doesn't it seem like overkill to just vaccinate everyone?

          It feels paternalistic to me.

          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

          by coquiero on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:10:44 PM PDT

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          •  no. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shpilk, SnowCountry

            My spouse work for the government agency and delivers health care.  You have disdain for any institution, presumably including his.  So no, I don't think you are OK to conclude you need to be hyper-vigilant and skeptical because the government writes his check.

            CDC is a healthcare agency. If your immediate response is physicians, scientists, researchers who work for the government are probably lying to you  then you are not significantly different from right wingers who fear government health care.  It isn't science to refuse to believe anything any more than it is science to believe everything.  How do you plan to collect your own national statistical database on health problems to maintain your skeptical approach or will you just rely on your observations that no one you know gets Hepatitis so the problem is overblown?

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 09:13:36 PM PDT

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      •  Sure (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shpilk, murrayewv, G2geek, dotalbon, coquiero

        There was actually quite a good explanation of HepB vaccination issues in the book Vaccine by Allen.  If this is a topic you care about I would encourage reading it.  And I assure you it is not all rosy on vaccine issues.

        About 9000 children a year were getting infected with HepB in the 1990s. 90% of them developed chronic HepB infection. This could lead to cirrhosis and liver cancer.

        It wasn't clear where all those infections were coming from.

        So in the interest of the public health--for those kids or for their network--a safe vaccine made sense.

        Maybe 9000/year isn't enough for you to take that risk.  Ok.  

        What level of risk is legitimate for you?

        Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

        by mem from somerville on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:05:43 PM PDT

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      •  Not sure if this helps, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shpilk, Ahianne, G2geek

        but you got me interested.

        Here's a graph from an article in JAMA:

        Implementation of Newborn Hepatitis B Vaccination—Worldwide, 2006

        Two major modes of HBV transmission occur during infancy: (1) from an infected mother to her newborn during delivery, and (2) from an infected household contact to the infant.

        Perinatal HBV transmission accounts for an estimated 21% of HBV-related deaths globally and 13%-26% regionally. 1

        HepB vaccine is 70%-95% effective as postexposure prophylaxis in preventing mother-to-infant HBV transmission when the first dose is administered within 24 hours after birth. 8

        HepB vaccination of newborns also provides early preexposure protection to infants born to uninfected women during a period when, if HBV exposure were to occur, the risk for developing chronic HBV infection is greatest (i.e., during the first year of life).

        Infants who become HBV infected have an approximately 90% risk for developing chronic HBV infection, and when chronically infected, have a 25% risk for dying prematurely from cirrhosis or liver cancer.

        Thus, newborn HepB immunization is a key intervention to prevent perinatal HBV transmission and a critical strategy to reduce the global morbidity and mortality associated with hepatitis B.

        (Line breaks and emphases mine.  The numbers after some sentences are citations.; JAMA. 2009;301(1):29-31. MMWR. 2008;57:1249-1252.)

        As for what chronic HepB looks like - there are risks and side effects which include cirrhosis and liver failure at the extreme end of the spectrum - the vaccine is intended (AFAIK) to keep more babies/people healthy due to high transmission at birth.

        "a lie that can no longer be challenged becomes a form of madness" -Debord

        by grollen on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:28:42 PM PDT

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        •  More evidence..... (4+ / 0-)

          During 1990--2002, the incidence of acute hepatitis B declined 67%, from 8.5 per 100,000 population (21,102 total cases reported) to 2.8 per 100,000 population (8,064 total cases reported).

          The rate of liver cancer is decreasing as well.  HepB vaccine is really a cancer vaccine as much as HPV.  And HepB is also a venereal disease too.

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:58:20 PM PDT

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        •  That's very impressive (0+ / 0-)

          Those numbers indicate success.

          But I think the first sentence of that article in JAMA is as important as the rest.  

          If there's no HBV in the household, how is the baby at risk?  Did we need to vaccinate every baby in America to achieve those results?

          Some of these vaccination campaigns seem like trying to squash a bug with a sledgehammer.

          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

          by coquiero on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 04:21:11 AM PDT

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