Skip to main content

View Diary: Carter: Palestinian Leaders "Seriously Considering" One-State Solution (301 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Yes, I'll tell you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Karmafish

    pretty much anyone who thinks that a one-state solution is the best way to go, who advocates for the one-state solution, that's who "they" is.  

    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

    by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 02:38:08 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

      •  Jeesus (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Karmafish

        is it "Play Dumb Day at DailyKos?"

        Since I want to maintain some respect for you, I'll just ignore that you asked such an idiotic question.

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 02:44:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't understand your hostility. (7+ / 0-)

          I'm not being hostile with you. I'm having a problem with your comments about "them" and "they," and based on our past discussions, I think it's possible for us to talk this out.

          I have several ideas about what you mean by "real goal." What I'm trying to find out is what exactly it is you mean? Because, frankly, the way I'm reading your comments lately, it seems like you're unfairly accusing a lot of people of antisemitism.

          •  All right, here it is (4+ / 0-)

            I think that most of the people -- THEY -- who advocate for a one-state solution have two goals. One goal is to have a Palestinian state, and the other goal is to have only a Palestinian state. That is, THEY want to eliminate Israel. THEY want to eliminate a Jewish state, a homeland for the Jews. THEY support Palestinian statehood, THEY support Palestinian nationalism, but THEY oppose Jewish statehood and Jewish nationalism (known as Zionism).  THEY know that this goal cannot be achieved militarily, so THEY cling to the nonstarter one-state idea as THEIR only means of achieving THEIR goal.

            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

            by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 02:54:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  And by the way (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Karmafish, hikerbiker, canadian gal

            nowhere did I accuse anyone of anti-semitism, although I do believe that anti-Zionism, if not coupled with anti-Palestinianism and anti-nationalism in general, is anti-semitic.

            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

            by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 02:56:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I partly agree with you here. (3+ / 0-)

              I can see a person not necessarily being an anti-nationalist and still legitimately be an anti-Zionist. But if a person isn't antisemitic, he should definitely be equally opposed to Palestinian nationalism.

            •  Anti-Palestinian racism or... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zannie, blueness

              ...opposition to Palestinian nationalism? The two are not the same.  Additionally, many of us (myself included) are not really supportive of nationalism in general, and just endorse whatever solution appears to be pragmatic and satisfactory.  

              I think I've said before that there are too many different kinds of anti-Zionism to really make these kind of conclusions.  

              What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

              by Alec82 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 03:16:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Anti-Palestinian nationalism (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Alec82

                I thought that was clear enough from the context.

                In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 04:35:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well it's difficult.... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...as Palestinian is an ethnic identity and a largely theoretical state-based identity, at the moment.  

                  As far as your query goes, I would say that anyone who identified as an anti-Zionist without also opposing nationalism on some level would be wading into dangerous waters.  I'm wondering if the inverse is true, though: the other nationalities that do not enjoy their own state, does opposing the creation of one for them, at the expense of others, make one a racist? Certainly opposing equal rights for the Quebecois or Basques would be racist; does opposing the creation of a nation state for them make one so?

                  Maybe part of the problem I'm having is that I don't really agree with nationalism, and any support for it is really based on pragmatism.

                  What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                  by Alec82 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 04:51:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Stating that being anti-Zionist is equivalent (7+ / 0-)

                    to antisemitism prevents Palestinians who were displaced from their homes in 1948 and for those who remained in Israel to speak about their rights without being branded anti-Jewish.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I refuse to be labeled antisemitic because I oppose a political ideology that has destroyed my people.  I have no problem with the Jewish people.  I am opposed an exclusive political system that denies me the right to the homeland of my family for centuries and denies the ones who remained on the land to participate fully in the political life of the state.

                    "This is not a boycott of Israelis. It's a boycott of pretending that everything is normal in Israel" Naomi Klein http://www.bdsmovement.net/

                    by soysauce on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 05:07:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm heading out... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      unspeakable, soysauce, hikerbiker

                      ...and so I can't respond in full as I would like, but I do not consider your position at all antisemitic.  I don't think that's what either Paul or unspeakable were discussing.  

                      What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                      by Alec82 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 05:24:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I think this is exactly what we are discussing. (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie, Aunt Martha, unspeakable, Alec82

                        The issue of how Palestinians see Zionism, or as Edward Said put it, "Zionism from the point of view of its victims" is the crux of the matter.  I am really confused by what Paul means by the "they" and "their goal".  What is this language if not to undermine Palestinian's legitimate grief at the shackles of Zionism as it is manifested?  

                        "This is not a boycott of Israelis. It's a boycott of pretending that everything is normal in Israel" Naomi Klein http://www.bdsmovement.net/

                        by soysauce on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 07:03:31 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  No, it does not (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      hikerbiker

                      I'm a Zionist, as you may have gathered, and I support the right of Palestinians to have their own state.  (Everyone pay attention to what I just wrote, so I don't have to deal with some asshole lying about it later).  The two are not inconsistent.  

                      If someone is anti-Zionist within the context of being anti-nationalist in general (and since unspeakable has a hard on about me naming names, I'll indulge him by mentioning that I seem to recall from a thread a year or so ago that Litho falls into this category), there is nothing objectionable about that.  It is principled, and it doesn't single out Jews as being the only group denied the right to nationalism.

                      However, if someone opposes Zionism without opposing other forms of nationalism, then they are singling out Jews, and saying "of all people, you don't get the right to your nationalist aspirations." It's that singling out of the Jews to deny them something everyone else seems to have the right to, that strikes me as anti-semitic.

                      By the way, I'll just throw this in as a final thought, for posterity:  I'm a Zionist, as you may have gathered, and I support the right of Palestinians to have their own state.  

                      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                      by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 07:25:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well this much is true (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        callmecassandra

                        It's that singling out of the Jews to deny them something everyone else seems to have the right to, that strikes me as anti-semitic.

                        However, nationalism is not equivalent to statehood.  I don't believe any national group has the right to a state that reflects their ethnic character, and certainly not at the expense of other groups within the territorial boundaries of said state.  Your position would result in every national group being granted a nation state.  That's not the way the world works. Ask the Kurds, the Romani or the Tibetans, among many others.  

                        To the extent that nations exist, they are imagined communities.  No one is attempting to deny Jews or Palestinians a sense of belonging to a national group.  I believe that you are incorrectly conflating nation states with national aspirations.  

                        What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                        by Alec82 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 09:54:50 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  hm (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Alec82

                          nationalism is not equivalent to statehood

                          it is also not equivalent to zionism. paul states

                          if someone opposes Zionism without opposing other forms of nationalism

                          which i suppose would have to be weighted against what other forms of nationalism he is referring to. at least he didn't say 'without opposing all other forms of nationalism'. one can be a nationalist without approving of citizenship qualification based on race or ethnicity.

                          •  Fair enough (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie, callmecassandra

                            I don't really care, since I'm not a nationalist in either the jingoistic or in the sense of devotion to one's culture and "people" over the interests of common humanity.  Regardless, my point was that he was conflating, at least, statehood with nationalism.  

                            What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                            by Alec82 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 09:09:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yes (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            my point was intended as an add on or addition to your point, not any kind of counter balance. one can't just say zionism equals nationalism as they aren't synonymous. he didn't say they were but he implies it.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site