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View Diary: EPA: Pending Mountaintop Removal Permits Would Likely Violate Clean Water Act (164 comments)

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  •  Which completely ignores that the same EPA (0+ / 0-)

    APPROVED 42 out of 48 of these very same permits only months ago. Get your shit straight, just because they are doing the right thing now is not reason to bash those who put pressure on the Obama Administration then; they just might have been the reason that we have this good news today.

    Can we have a just a little perspective?

    A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

    by nippersdad on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:56:43 AM PDT

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    •  You are conflating. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      1BQ, MRA NY

      Here is some perspective:

      The people putting pressure (phone calls, $$, signing petitions, etc...) and the people here on DKos who 'freaked out' and the people who 'defend Obama' are not all mutually exclusive groups.

      Many "defenders" like myself ALSO make calls, donate money to the prog caucus and put pressure on this Administration. I can push and demand without tearing my hair out and calling names.

      And I certainly don't assume that just because someone is posting here about how betrayed they feel that means that they are actually taking effective action, although I am sure some are.

      Lisa

      All Kossacks are my allies.

      by Boston to Salem on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:18:00 AM PDT

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      •  Granted, but did you answer my point? (0+ / 0-)

        Why would the Obama EPA initially grant so many of these permits a couple of months ago only to potentially reverse themselves now? There is reason to believe that those crying betrayal just may have had more of an effect than those who gave the impression that, while upset, they would not appreciably change their support for the Administration in the absence of any actual change in policy. When that is extrapolated across the range of policies upon which betrayal is cried, the political effects are magnified.

        This is how the Overton window is moved.

        A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

        by nippersdad on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:26:36 AM PDT

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        •  It's called administrative process (5+ / 0-)

          which is EXACTLY what I was pointing to. Some kossaks are calling for special unlawful treatment, for a Unitary Executive. And they're wrong.

          •  Nonsense. We knew at the time that these permits (0+ / 0-)

            would not pass muster with the Clean Water Act unless the Bush Administration definitions and evasions which allowed the practice in the first place were left intact. This is the very type of thing that was expected of the Obama Administration going in; the elimination of Bush directives which gutted the intent of the law.

            There is process and there is leadership. In this case, who was leading whom? Unitary Executive theory governance within the Executive Branch is pretty much a given, it is with regard to the other brances of government where your argument comes into play.

            A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

            by nippersdad on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:41:45 AM PDT

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        •  There have been some quiet, low-profile (6+ / 0-)

          personnel changes (along with the headliners as well). That's had an impact.

          Book excerpts: nonlynnear; other writings: mofembot.

          by mofembot on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:46:25 AM PDT

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        •  again, you are jumping to conclusions. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          1BQ, realityworld

          First, I don't know exactly what changed - maybe some personnel? Maybe a memo/message sent from the WH that EPA personnel would no longer be hampered in their jobs? I am assuming there is a process at play. And processes take time, etc...

          Second, you said

          There is reason to believe that those crying betrayal just may have had more of an effect than those who gave the impression that, while upset, they would not appreciably change their support for the Administration in the absence of any actual change in policy.

          Again - please don't assume that because I am not on DKos calling Obama "Bushlite", etc... that means that this administration cannot lose my support. Believe me, they certainly can, and I have made that clear in my emails and calls to the WH as well as my progressive rep in Congress and my Senator. I think I (and some others) am just willing to give them more time to make real change happen.
          I believe that Obama plays a loooong game.

          Lisa

          All Kossacks are my allies.

          by Boston to Salem on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:49:41 PM PDT

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          •  Kudos! That is great! (0+ / 0-)

            However, if

            All Kossacks are my allies.

            why are you calling out the tactics of those who may not necessarily agree with you?

            A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

            by nippersdad on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 01:00:26 PM PDT

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            •  I can't offer critical feedback? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              1BQ, realityworld

              Being allies means we can't critique one another?

              That makes no sense to me.

              Lisa

              All Kossacks are my allies.

              by Boston to Salem on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 02:43:46 PM PDT

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              •  Let's review: (0+ / 0-)

                I don't expect anyone to own up to fearmongering, or apologize,

                The initial point made did not look particularly constructive. Not saying that you made it, but that if we are not allowed to have our say when it counts, the grasping at straws we see here is not necessarily going to be viewed by us as necessarily fair. Those of us critical of events at the time were pounded then, we are, as you can see, being pounded now and no one even knows why the change in policy was made or how it will end up.

                Time to dial down the rhetoric and see what the passage of time brings us on this issue.

                A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

                by nippersdad on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:05:43 PM PDT

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                •  Have whatever "say" you want. (0+ / 0-)

                  I might not share your attitude, or your exact opinion about what's going on, but I respect your right to express yourself. I also think it's OK to offer feedback to one another about those expressions.  

                  My only point is that you seemed to be assuming that people who "defend" Obama here are not also applying pressure with actual political action, and people here "bashing" Obama must be the ones applying pressure in actual political action.

                  And I take issue with "grasping at straws". Acknowledging small amounts of progress isn't grasping at straws.

                  And it is LONG past time to dial down the rhetoric.

                  Lisa

                  All Kossacks are my allies.

                  by Boston to Salem on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:00:11 PM PDT

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                  •  Got that. (0+ / 0-)

                    Have you seen where the Eric Holder has decided not to prosecute Schlozman for politicizing the civil rights department at Justice? Where Spain is asking Holder if he is going to go actually after those who were largely responsible for writing up justifications for Bush Administration overreach re the Geneva Conventions?

                    I take issue with "grasping at straws". Acknowledging small amounts of progress isn't grasping at straws.

                    Oh, I see that you have. Upholding the law should not be considered progress.

                    I don't care how pressure is applied, but I think it counterproductive to call those without your tactical style fearmongers who cannot be expected to apologize for their appalling behavior because...well...because they are just so damn appalling in the first place? Who knows?

                    But that is just my view.

                    A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

                    by nippersdad on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:16:33 PM PDT

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                    •  I never said that. (0+ / 0-)

                      I never said that people were fearmongering, or appalling. Fearmongering, to me, implies people deliberately trying to upset/frighten by manipulating them. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

                      And guess what? After 8 years of the law NOT being upheld, getting an administration that seems interested in upholding the law IS progress. We can acknowledge progress AND demand even MORE progress.  

                      And that's MY view.

                      Lisa

                      All Kossacks are my allies.

                      by Boston to Salem on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:45:53 PM PDT

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                      •  Funny! (0+ / 0-)

                        I acknowledged that you never said it. Reading comprehension is a valuable skill, doncha know. But, if those little recommends next to the intro's are any guide, you agreed with those who did.

                        Why are you in my face? I have agreed with your point that all forms of political pressure brought to bear are acceptable to me. What is your ongoing issue?

                        After 8 years of the law NOT being upheld, getting an administration that seems interested in upholding the law IS progress.

                        Woohooo! seeming interested is a pretty high bar, isn't it. Hopefully the Spanish will have more luck with them than we did. Pretty bad when the good guys (as opposed to us fearmongers) can be so easily thrilled by an Administration that can only be embarrassed into upholding the law. I'm impressed.

                        A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

                        by nippersdad on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 08:08:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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