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View Diary: Over the Line: Wingnut Pastor Attempts Inciting Assassination (216 comments)

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  •  Thanks, valadon. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, G2geek, lazybum

    The additional insight is good to know, and it helps to see how these folks are carefully choosing their words, so as to be able to hide behind a technicality when someone else commits a crime.

    A corrupted government. Patriots branded as renegades. This is how we roll.

    by GreyHawk on Sun Sep 13, 2009 at 07:27:29 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  you're welcome (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, GreyHawk, fnord warrior

      I'm sorry that Ben thinks that people want to gut the Constitution. Nothing could be further from the truth, but there is a reason that the first amendment has limitations. We know that it's limited concerning hate speech that leads to violence in racial or sexual and gender discrimination cases, and it is limited by those who might incite riots or violent action against the state.

      Those limitations are meant to protect us as well otherwise we'd have no recourse to speech that leads to violent action especially with respect to minorities.

      If they can prove that he has an intent to incite violence, then he is in a world of trouble and the Constitution will not protect him.

      Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

      by valadon on Sun Sep 13, 2009 at 07:54:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Intent to incite "Imminent" violence. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valadon, G2geek, GreyHawk

        It may well be that the Court will decide to take on a case clarifying the test under the 'imminent' prong in context of near instantaneous global communications, but at presesent, Brandenburg and Hess are settled law.



        Medical Marijuana is Healthcare. does YOUR bill cover it?

        by ben masel on Sun Sep 13, 2009 at 08:35:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  any chance we'd see some (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek, GreyHawk

          boundaries pushed? Even if we have instantaneous communication, what if someone doesn't respond to a threat in a timely manner or is unable to respond?
          We had a national tragedy in 2001, but no matter our sophistication there was no defense and there was seemingly no ability to prevent it.

          and yes, "imminent"...my omission was not intentional.

          Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

          by valadon on Sun Sep 13, 2009 at 08:46:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  With the present Court (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            valadon, G2geek, GreyHawk

            I suspect we'd see groupings quite different from the traditional left/right split. Scalia's pretty absolutist on the 1st Amendment. Souter would probably try to hold to the spirit of Brandenburg. Stevens, who'd likely agree with him, will not be on the Court by time this comes up. Sotomayor's sole 1st Amendment case dealt with school speech, where she ruled for censorship by school administrators, but this gives little clue where she'd stasnd on a Brandenburg derivitive. Roberts might well follow his authoritarisan impulse.

            Kennedy almost always tries to split the difference.



            Medical Marijuana is Healthcare. does YOUR bill cover it?

            by ben masel on Sun Sep 13, 2009 at 09:02:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  thnx Ben (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek, GreyHawk

              Then that leaves it very uncertain at the moment.

              I'm not willing to abridge someone's right to free speech except in extreme cases, but there are some realities that might need to be addressed. I'm more concerned with the possibility of escalating violence and how we can properly deal with it as it relates to acts of violence that stem from hate speech. We're looking at SC findings that were written in 1919, and that hadn't been challenged (and narrowed) until Brandenburg in 1969.

              But, I have to agree this court is a mixed bag...right now I'm concerned about their ruling on Corporate "individuals" and that's troubling in itself.

              Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

              by valadon on Sun Sep 13, 2009 at 09:25:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Between Shenk and Brandenburg (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                valadon, GreyHawk

                came the Smith Act (Communist Party) cases. In Noto and Yates the Court moved in the direction they finally wound up in Brandenburg.



                Medical Marijuana is Healthcare. does YOUR bill cover it?

                by ben masel on Sun Sep 13, 2009 at 10:07:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  where i'd like to see this go... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                valadon, GreyHawk

                ...culturally rather than legally:

                is for all forms of hate speech and violent speech to become as culturally unacceptable as jokes about grownups fucking ten-year-old girls.  Those kinds of jokes are perfectly legal, but you never hear them because anyone who told a joke like that would be immediately ostracized.  

                That's what we need to do with violent speech and hate speech.

                •  I think you make a good point (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  GreyHawk

                  I wonder how we can accomplish that. We'd certainly need a media that doesn't feed into such behavior, and as well there would have to be a whole lot of individual responsibility.

                  Short of putting people in stocks in the public square, there would have to be a way to publicly marginalize unacceptable behavior. That's a tall order, but I do think that addressing it culturally is as important, if not more so, than simply having legal safeguards.

                  thnx

                  Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                  by valadon on Mon Sep 14, 2009 at 09:47:58 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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