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View Diary: Are the Laws Against Prostitution Doing Anyone Any Good? (210 comments)

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  •  try pages 139-140. (1+ / 0-)
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    selective quoting is cute, but does not disagree with what i originally stated.

    i actually own the book in question.  puritan views of sex varied depending on which era of puritan existence one is talking about (when they first came in, 100 years later, etc.)

    as i already noted, puritans were concerned that one would be dominated by sexual desire-- or anger, or any of the other sins.  they struggled with wanting married couples to enjoy sex and have a good sexual bond, but also wanting to make sure those same married couples did not privilege their sex lives over God and make sexual idols of each other.

    this is part of the heart of the puritan pursuit of moderation in all things, including sexual enjoyment.  

    they also liked drinking (p 141), but abhorred drunkenness.  saying they liked drinking doesn't magically mean they all rushed out to get drunk daily.  but it is cute that you think noting that puritans believed sex within marriage should be enjoyable for both husband and wife means 'puritans were vanguards of free love'.

    especially considering that many 'free love' proponents were male and were completely uninterested in women deriving as much pleasure from sex as men.  that didn't come along until nancy friday and the 70s, for the most part.  

    in short, the puritans liked sex, but they had legitimate Biblically-based concerns about being ruled by one's genitals.  

    http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/bth/toc.html

    by shoeboy on Thu Sep 17, 2009 at 04:14:40 PM PDT

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    •  i still agree with G2geek (0+ / 0-)

      puritan culture was repressive and led to americans' deep ambivilance toward sexuality that results in some people displaying deep seated need to condemn and legislate other peoples sex practices.  

      kind of like you.

      Listen very carefully. I shall say this only once.

      by st minutia on Thu Sep 17, 2009 at 06:41:58 PM PDT

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      •  um, no, it didn't. (0+ / 0-)

        pentecostal Christianity, which followed the demise of the puritans and feminism (the first and second wave stuff) are actually the scapegoats you're looking for.  

        puritan culture was complex and nuanced.  like me!  

        legalising something is legislating it and condemning that which lies outside the legal bounds.

        as i have said in another comment, prostitution laws forbidding prostitution are not optimal.  and in an additional comment, i linked to the horrors of the swedish form of legalising prostitution-- it was not a win for the actual prostitutes.  the point being that there is no easy way to deal with whoredom.  you can't ensure that everyone doing it is not explicitly coerced even when it's nominally legal.  and it is very questionable to defend the right of men to purchase other people for sexual fulfillment.  men are almost entirely the ones purchasing others for sex, and that fact is why there are strong feminist arguments against encouraging women to pursue a life of whoredom.  

        http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/bth/toc.html

        by shoeboy on Thu Sep 17, 2009 at 07:41:39 PM PDT

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        •  yes. men do the majority of purchasing of (1+ / 0-)
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          sex.  they do not purchase the person providing the sex.  when you hire a prostitute, you do not buy her, you buy her services for a finite time period.  and men do the vast majority of purchasing for sex and the least amount of jail time for the offense.  i certainly agree that that is not optimal.  

          the selective enforcement against women, the utter inability of any society to eradicate prostitution, and the lack of social good coming from prostitution being illegal are persuasive argements for legalization.  all prostitution laws do is jail prostitutes while letting their male customers completely off the hook.  our current prostitution laws are therefore pointless, harmful, sexist in their implementation and hypocritical in the guise of "saving poor cute little women from evil men."

          unpaid human sexual relationships have coerced sex as well, and i am not referring only to rape.  you can't ever get rid of that.  interpersonal sex relationships are often about power over one another.  at least with prostitution, it's an straight forward commercial exchange.

          legalizing prostitution is not the same as encouraging women to become prostitutes.

          and for someone using feminism as an argument for not "encouraging whoredom," your earlier comments about my arguments being "cute" are utterly offensive and smack of sexism.  i  admit to choosing quotes that serve my argument. isn't that why one includes quotes in an argument?  and though repressive puritan culture is not the one and only cause of sexual dysfunctions we see in modern america, it's "complex and nuanced" repressiveness is still evident today.

          Listen very carefully. I shall say this only once.

          by st minutia on Fri Sep 18, 2009 at 12:13:51 AM PDT

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