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View Diary: "Why I threw the shoe" (79 comments)

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  •  But was it worth the torture? n/t (3+ / 0-)

    "And God separated the light from the dark, and did two loads of laundry"

    by Fiddlegirl on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 06:42:17 AM PDT

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    •  Of course not. (3+ / 0-)

      But the stupidity and venality of the people who punished him does nothing to erase the show of disrespect to our President, or to make al-Zaidi some kind of hero.

      I am really enjoying my stimulus package.

      by Kevvboy on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 06:45:02 AM PDT

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      •  As if that President of ours deserved any (6+ / 0-)


        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 07:04:35 AM PDT

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        •  Yeah, but that's exactly (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kevvboy, divineorder, elsibiades

          what the Joe Wilsons of the world say, too.

          A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. -Greek proverb

          by marleycat on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 07:26:57 AM PDT

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          •  To paraphrase the old saying... (3+ / 0-)

            ... one is entitled to one's own opinion, but not one's own facts.

            The fact of the matter is that BushCo lied about the premises to go to war; a war that ravaged Iraq.  And President Obama was not lying in his speech.

            So here's where opinion comes into play.  At what point does the office disgrace itself to the point that it is no longer worthy of respect?

            No more Snowe jobs! Co-op is a cop out. It is not an option, let alone a public one.

            by JRandomPoster on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 09:14:02 AM PDT

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        •  The man may not, but the office does. (3+ / 0-)

          When I was a child our entire house stopped what we were doing to listen when the President came on TV.  It didn't matter which president, or if my parents agreed with him.  Being Democrats, my parents rarely agreed with what the President was saying.  Even so, he was The President of the United States and we all treated that office with enough respect to listen even if we did not agree or understand.  People don't seem to do that anymore.  Perhaps it is a direct result of the GW Administration.  Perhaps it is the 24 hour news cycle.  Perhaps it is talk radio.  No matter why, it's a shame.

          I think Bush deserves shoes thrown at him.  I think he deserves our collective scorn.  I think he deserves that scorn because he so badly mismanaged what was once the most respected office in the world and stained it with his own flaws.  I look forward to the sitting President to recover some of that lost respect.

          •  Although I don't know how old you are ... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Fiddlegirl, divineorder

            ... I am certain that no President of your childhood ever sullied the office as grotesquely as Bush did. Not even Nixon (the first President I can remember), not no one.

            Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

            by Buckeye Hamburger on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 08:47:25 AM PDT

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            •  Yes, Nixon sullied it just as badly (0+ / 0-)

              or worse - how can you say one thief is a worse thief than the next thief? - but at his very worst moment George W. Bush was still the President of the United States and the office deserves respect.

              I am really enjoying my stimulus package.

              by Kevvboy on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 10:14:06 PM PDT

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              •  Nixon was a crook (0+ / 0-)

                ... and richly deserves his place in the pantheon of our worse Presidents, not only for Watergate, but also for Vietnam and a variety of other disgraces, including his career as Joseph McCarthy's worst henchman in the House.

                And I'm sympathetic to your idea that we don't necessarily need a ranking of the worst Presidents, but nevertheless, I stand by my assertion that Bush stands out against Nixon.

                Nixon would have liked to take on imperial powers as much as Bush and Cheney did, but however begrudgingly, he implicitly accepted limits and did not cross certain lines. His attempt to subvert the democratic process with Watergate and the other dirty tricks was clandestine -- done in secret, and he tried to cover them up. And he just didn't go to certain extremes such as torture, extraordinary rendition, contempt for habeas corpus, extralegal prison camps, or trials outside the jurisdiction of US courts.

                Bush and Cheney did all of these things, to much greater extremes, and to a large extent quite brazenly in public under a theory unlimited executive power -- a concept of the Presidency as essentially a military dictatorship, which still has not received the thorough discrediting that it deserves. Bush/Cheney arrogated to themselves absolute power to an extent that Nixon might have dreamed of but never dared. When I joined the Daily Kos, I chose a sig line to point out what that leads to.

                John Dean, the convicted Watergate co-conspirator who in my opinion is fully rehabilitated, made a similar argument in his book Worse Than Watergate.

                Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

                by Buckeye Hamburger on Sun Sep 20, 2009 at 01:33:37 AM PDT

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      •  If someone had invaded the US.... (5+ / 0-)

        ....and killed hundreds of thousands (or, possibly millions, to make it proportional to Iraq) of our people and their leader was encouraging the whole thing, I'd imagine you'd feel less than charitable to him. Hell, given the circumstances, I'd say a shoe was pretty mild. This isn't a difference of opinion. This is a crime on a massive scale.

      •  "The stupidity and venality... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Buckeye Hamburger, divineorder

        ...of the people who punished him" only make him even more of a hero in my eyes.

        "No PO, no bill, no money, no nothin' but hell on earth for these people." -SouthernDragon at FDL

        by nehark on Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 09:43:53 AM PDT

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    •  Of course not.... (3+ / 0-)

      Torture is never justified.  

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