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  •  Prius is $22,000 now, Insight $21,000 (0+ / 0-)

    Real cars, getting excellent gas mileage right now.

    And by the time the dino-boys at GM straggle out with 10,000 Volt cars for their first year of production, the Nissan Leaf with a 100 mile all electric range will be available, making the Volt obsolete before it hits the streets.

    Want unlimited range and 50+ mpg?  Buy a Prius.

    Want the most range in an all electric car?  Buy a Nissan Leaf.

    Sad to see the US workers at GM betrayed by their greedy and stupid management, the same people who literally crushed GM's working electric car- what idiots.

    "I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." - Barack Obama, 3-24-09

    by MD patriot on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 06:48:12 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  *sigh* (0+ / 0-)

      First off, while the Prius is great, most reviewers have panned the new Insight as an overrated piece of junk.

      Secondly, the Leaf only gets 100 miles range on the LA4 cycle, which is more like 60 miles on the highway.  And it has no range extender.  And it'll cost $20-$30k after the rebate, PLUS $150/mo for as long as you own the vehicle in battery lease.  The Volt starts at $32k after the rebate, with no lease.  Nissan is planning to beat GM on volume, mind you; they plan for 5k vehicles for fleet leases in 2010, while GM plans for a few hundred.  GM plans for 10k in 2011; I'm not sure of Nissan's 2011 target.  GM plans for 40k in 2012, while Nissan plans for 100k.

      Want the most range in an all electric car?  Buy a Nissan Leaf.

      Not even close.  Of vehicles existing now, that would be the Tesla Roadster.  Of vehicles announced, that would be the Tesla Model S with optional long-range pack.  Of budget vehicles, that would be the Aptera 2e, which has only a slightly smaller pack than the leaf, but weighs half as much and has less than half the aero drag (meaning a much longer real-world range).

      And I can't believe you're making GM out to be the villain here when it comes to EVs.  They're putting a huge amount of money into EVs and PHEVs, literally building factories to make them in tens of thousands per year quantities, etc.  And here you are praising Toyota and Honda, when those two are actively badmouthing EVs every chance they get.

      GM was run by incompetent management in the early 00s.  We get it.  That's the past now.  Get over it.  Today's situation is very different.  Toyota and Honda are fighting EVs.  The Big Three are pushing them.  They're not the only ones pushing them (by a long shot), but they should get credit for it.

      •  GM crushed the EV1 (0+ / 0-)

        They essentially had the lead in real world electric cars, but chose to literally crush the EV1 and end that program.

        Short term thinking at GM has ruined that company.  Now they spend millions on advertisements using MY TAX Money to push their bloated SUVs and bug-mobiles (small, squashed bug looking SUVs).

        Where did you get your cost figures for the Nissan Leaf?   If it is $20K I'll buy one, $30K no way, that is quite a range.  I don't imagine they would bother building 100,000 of them if they were going to try to sell them for $30K.

        I routinely get 58 mpg in my 2010 Prius, so why would I not get 100 mile range in the Nissan Leaf?

        "I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." - Barack Obama, 3-24-09

        by MD patriot on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 12:41:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes. *In the early 00s*. Under *Wagoner*. (0+ / 0-)

          Wagoner is gone.  Kicked out.  No more.  Out of there.  What he ordered under his tenure is irrelevant to the GM of today.  And even he regrets crushing the EV1s (although only for PR reasons) -- he called it the greatest mistake of his tenure (this, from someone who ran the company into the ground).

          You do realize that they all make and push big SUVs, right?  Ever heard of the Toyota Sequoia, for example  In terms of CAFE ratings, GM is #4 (out of 8) in domestic cars, #5 (out of 20) in imported cars, and #14 (out of 17) in light trucks.  So GM's SUVs are less efficient than most others -- but their cars are good or better than the others (including both Nissan and Mitsubishi, two much-praised EV makers).  GM's percent of SUV sales aren't much worse than most of their competitors.

          Note that these stats are from before GM sold off their most guzzling assets during their bankruptcy (for example, Hummer).

          Where did you get your cost figures for the Nissan Leaf?   If it is $20K I'll buy one, $30K no way, that is quite a range.  I don't imagine they would bother building 100,000 of them if they were going to try to sell them for $30K.

          I can't point to a single article because the numbers Nissan has been citing are all over the place -- hence the range.  There's only been one number cited for the lease price, however, and that's 100 euros a month ($150/mo).  We can hope that they'll be at the lower end of the purchase price range, certainly, but you'll still have that battery lease.

          Most people focus too much on the upfront costs and not enough on the ongoing costs.

          I don't imagine they would bother building 100,000 of them if they were going to try to sell them for $30K.

          The US car market, once we get out of the recession, will probably be about 13-14 million cars per year.  Add to that the other markets the factory would serve (Canada, Mexico, etc)  100k/year isn't out of the ballpark.

          I routinely get 58 mpg in my 2010 Prius, so why would I not get 100 mile range in the Nissan Leaf?

          Because, like I said, it's based on the LA4 drivecycle  Does that look like how you drive?  No more than ~35mph for 90% of your driving?  The cycle is practically optimized for making EVs look better than they are (that's why Nissan chose it, undoubtedly).  EVs get the most range at very low speeds (for example, the Tesla Roadster gets a peak range of about 410 miles when driving steady-state at 18mph).

          •  that cycle has lots of starts and stops (0+ / 0-)

            I try to keep my speed much smoother than that, so I could probably do better than 100 mile range.

            Hypermiling techniques can be adjusted for electric car use, no way would I stop and start as much as the cycle you show.  With a 20 mile round trip on our local 30 to 40 mph roads, I can get 75 mpg in the Prius.  Total stops are 10, that cycle shows 18 stops.

            "I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." - Barack Obama, 3-24-09

            by MD patriot on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 01:24:16 PM PDT

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            •  Li-ion EVs don't lose much from starting and (0+ / 0-)

              stopping.  They're more efficient at regen than conventional hybrids.  A Prius only puts back about 30% of its energy back into the pack, while a Tesla Roadster puts back 60-70%.  The main limitation of EVs is in high speeds, which are virtually absent from the LA4 cycle.  Again, which is why it was chosen by Nissan.  Of all the major cycles, it gives the best results for EVs.

              Here's a graph for you of how EVs respond to speed.

              •  thanks for the information (0+ / 0-)

                And that's why I treat my Prius like a space ship, just firing the booster for several seconds, then coasting!  That's the way to get 100+ mpg with a Prius, but even short of extreme hyper-miling the Prius gets excellent mileage with the streamlined shape and excellent coasting ability.

                So it sounds like the Prius could be upgraded to 70+ mpg with Li-ion batteries, and maybe a plug-hybrid version of the Prius will be out by the time the slumbering taxpayer fed GM finally spews out a few thousand Volts.

                Aftermarket plug-hybrid Prius:

                The conversion package increases the car’s fuel mileage with the addition of a 170-pound high-energy rechargeable plug-in lithium-ion battery module.

                The lithium-ion battery can power the Prius for 40 miles, then it needs a recharge. Until then, the Prius goes back to using the factory battery as well as the gasoline engine.

                Plug Hybrid Prius

                So 40 miles for $.60 worth of electricity, that is  1.5 cents per mile for fuel, I pay about 5 cents per mile now for gasoline.

                "I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." - Barack Obama, 3-24-09

                by MD patriot on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 02:00:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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