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View Diary: And off we go into the wild UN Yonder (I/P) (347 comments)

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  •  I'm an Israel supporter... (5+ / 0-)

    ...and I've said that Obama failed miserably in at least two threads today.

    I'm just saying we could all paint with a much smaller brush.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 10:20:16 PM PDT

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    •  and you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jay Elias

      are a rare exception. I assume you read the same threads I did. I've observed few Zionists here willing to take the positions you do.

      •  I've observed few people of any persuasion here.. (3+ / 0-)

        ...willing to take the positions I do.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 10:41:45 PM PDT

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        •  likely true (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jay Elias

          why do you think that is?

          •  Because I'm crazy? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I don't really know how to answer that.  Part of it is that my experiences are uncommon.  Part of it is that I'm not a liberal in the conventional sense nor a progressive, which means I approach the site differently than I think most people here do.

            It is an interesting question for me, although I doubt the answers are interesting to anyone else.  I suppose the easiest answer is that I don't think about it much, because I've always felt I was off-center, in any environment.

            This comment is hard to reply to; I'm trying to avoid saying anything that implies I think that the positions that I take are better than those of anyone else.  But on some topics, I've simply seen things that most other people here haven't.  And I think seeing those things changes you, to a degree.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 11:03:00 PM PDT

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            •  to add to that (5+ / 0-)

              the only thing that gives me any hope at all about discussions of the I/P conflict here is that it appears people who have some kind of direct connection to the conflict or the region  (that is, they've actually lived there or been involved in the issues on the ground) are more able to discuss it without the rehearsed talking points (from both ends).

              There are plenty of armchair activists expounding on the conflict without ever having set foot in the entire region. Those of us who've lived there, grew up there, etc, have different insights, and while I won't say they are better, I'll say they tend to have a bit more depth.

              •  I hope you're right... (4+ / 0-)

                ...I can't help but to point out, however, that it is generally also the people who have lived there and grew up there who are doing the killing, on both sides.  

                It is a war.  And it has been going on for a very, very long time, since before any of us were born really.  And I think war does funny things to people.  I think that the poet Wilfred Owen had some of the most insightful things to say about war, and its meaninglessness and futility.  He volunteered to return to the front multiple times, and was killed a week before the war ended.

                I'll say this in answer to your first question: I take different positions here than most people because I believe that except when we are teaching people things or changing people's minds, this entire thing, all of Daily Kos, is nothing but a big circle jerk.  And that's fine and can be a lot of fun.  But most of the time, I find that really boring to engage in.  If I'm not teaching someone something, changing someone's mind, or learning something myself, I'm wasting my fucking time here.  And I don't like wasting my time; frankly, I've got a lot of shit to do.

                I don't know if this makes me different or not, but a lot of the time I notice some of the same names recommending my comments.  And for some of them, especially in I/P diaries, I know them well enough to know generally what they believe, what "side" they are on.  But for a lot of them, I'd say about half, I have absolutely no idea.  I'm sure I could look at their comment histories and find out.  But mostly, I just don't care.  To what benefit can I put that knowledge?  Why would I waste my time finding out?

                Bringing it back to the issue of people who have experiences with this conflict, I don't know why people act how they do.  I don't know why people who are thousands of miles away and will never set foot in these places care so much, nor do I know why people are willing to kill the people in the next village or on the other side of some invisible line on a map somewhere.  I suspect the answer is too complicated for me to understand anyway.  I know this is the way the world is, and I didn't make it this way nor am I capable of making it something else.

                I think that the more perceptive people who see this up close understand this, that none of it makes sense, but that this is the way it is.  That neither side is right because neither side so much as represents a coherent position.  And maybe we learn that just because you can't make sense of something doesn't mean you don't have to deal with its reality.

                Or maybe I should stop commenting.

                The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                by Jay Elias on Wed Sep 23, 2009 at 11:31:54 PM PDT

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                •  yes (5+ / 0-)

                  about this place being futile, useless, a meaningless wasteland, particularly I/P. Though that is true of most kinds of activism, particularly related to foreign policy. If you've ever been to any kind of Israel/Palestine related protest, they're pretty awful, filled with bizarre characters and offensive assholes.

                  So I figure at least here, you don't have to actually see the offensive assholes in person. Ultimately, we're all here for selfish reasons.

                  Of course you're right that the people killing each other are over there. But, I think my point was that people with direct experience in the region who decided to post on this website (that is, people who are liberal/progressive/whatever name you want to give them) seem to share a similar vocabulary, whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.

                  I'm not sure I agree with the last paragraph, but I'm too tired to reply to it, so I'll just say it was well written.

                •  "War does funny things to people", (2+ / 0-)
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                  Jay Elias, volleyboy1

                  you said, and I think it's important to recognize that 60+ years of conflict have wrought enormous changes on the Israeli and Palestinian people and societies. Neither is what they wanted it to be, and perhaps this offers hope that they will be motivated to find a resolution to the conflict.

                  Democrats: Members of the Democratic Party working to advance democracy; Republicons: Members of the Republicanist Party working to advance Republicanism

                  by word is bond on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 09:59:40 AM PDT

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