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View Diary: And off we go into the wild UN Yonder (I/P) (347 comments)

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  •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

    I certainly agree that you are no friend to the state of Israel, nor to its artists, writers, and academics.

    What I sincerely hope is that someday the Palestinian leadership will finally show that they've accepted UN 181 by accepting an offer for statehood.

    They've turned down every single offer.  In 1937 they rejected the offer of Brits.  In 1947 they rejected the offer of the UN.  In 2000 they rejected the offer by Israel.  And they've rejected others, as well.

    It's always the same answer, "No."

    Perhaps some future Palestinian leadership will shock the world be finally accepting a state and thus ending the occupation.

    That would be terrific.

    One can hope.

    As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

    by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 02:50:32 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  and you (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aunt Martha, unspeakable

      are no friend to the Palestinian people, and certainly not to Arabs.

      As an academic at an American university, I encourage my colleagues and peers to support the boycott, and most do. And many of them are Jewish. As I've said, since Palestinians cannot rely on the goodwill of the Israeli people or people like you, then there is no other choice but to isolate the occupation regime and put pressure on it.

      More than ever, I am eager and energetic about doing so.

      •  Palestinians who refuse the partition, (0+ / 0-)

        and thus refuse a Palestinian state, are bringing misery upon their own people.

        I recommend against.

        The Palestinian leadership has the power to end the occupation.  But they refuse.

        If your efforts at boycott are successful, expect rank-'n-file American Jews to push back hard.

        As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

        by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 04:15:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  fyi (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aunt Martha, unspeakable

          nobody cares what you recommend.

          And you don't speak for any of the Jews I know.

          •  The question that needs to be asked, (0+ / 0-)

            is just why the Palestinian leadership insist upon keeping the occupation going by refusing to accept a state?

            The offer made to the Jews in '47 was disappointing to the leadership of the Yishuv.  As you know, it did not include Jerusalem and only a small fraction of Palestine.

            Yet, they accepted it.  It was far from ideal, but they agreed because they truly wanted to build a nation, which they did.

            And yet the Palestinian leadership, to this day, refuses statehood.

            One can only conclude that the goal remains just as it was.  They do not want a peaceful and prosperous state of Palestine next to Israel, but the whole shebang.

            Not. Gonna. Happen.

            So sorry.

            You can boycott til the cows come home, but Israel will remain.

            Cheers!

            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

            by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 04:41:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the boycott (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Aunt Martha, unspeakable

              has nothing to do with Israel remaining or not. It has to do with ending the occupation.

              If you support an end to the occupation, it requires more than your lip-service.

              •  End the occupation? (0+ / 0-)

                Where in the world did you ever get the notion that the Palestinian leadership wants to end the occupation?

                They've done everything they could possibly do to maintain the occupation.

                The constant refusal to accept a state next to Israel maintains the occupation.

                When Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, the Gazans had an opportunity for autonomy and potential prosperity, but they threw it away in favor of maintaining the occupation. By bombarding Israel with rockets, thus causing Israel and Egypt to throw up the blockade, they ensured its continuation even after Israel sought to end it.

                As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 05:14:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  right (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zannie, Aunt Martha, unspeakable

                  now Palestinians want to be occupied!

                  Those poor Israelis, forced to occupy and steal land that they really are just begging to give back.

                  You're beyond foolish.

                  But the point (if you can follow points) is that your identity crisis is no excuse to support the occupation and the settlers, as you do. If you support an end to the occupation, it requires more than lip service, but action. What have you done lately in support of ending the occupation?

                  •  It's interesting to me that someone (0+ / 0-)

                    such as yourself, an allegedly well-respected professor of something or other, feels a need to demean and debase those you disagree with.

                    The constant need to resort to ad homs and personal attacks.  I would expect better from a well-respected professor of something or other.

                    In any case, as usual, nothing that you've said actually addresses anything that I've said.

                    What I've said is clear.  The Palestinian leadership has done everything it could possibly do to maintain the occupation.

                    I have given you two examples.  The failure to accept Palestinian statehood and the insistence on rockets from Gaza.

                    Have you, or have you not, an argument in opposition to what I wrote?  Or will you simply continue to make personal attacks?

                    Or, I know!, you can put a little virtual zero in the tiny virtual box beneath this comment.

                    LOL.

                    As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                    by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 06:03:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  karma (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sofia, Aunt Martha, unspeakable

                      if we've heard you once we have heard you a thousand times. we already know your think the palestinians leadertship got a marvelous deal and turned it down. now you claim they want the occupation and you expect people to respond to these allegations.

                      enough already!

                    •  well (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Aunt Martha, unspeakable

                      Being an allegedly well-respected professor (I never claimed to be well-respected) of something or other has nothing to do with anything.

                      I don't know your profession and I don't particularly care.

                      You, in case you haven't noticed, are uniquely unable to converse with any Arabs or Palestinians here. You never have an argument worth discussing. You are completely unable to follow a thread without inserting your typical generalizing, substance-less commentary (that is, when you're not engaging in racist discourse about "my people").

                      So really, as I've said before, your political positions are void of anything worthy of engagement.

                      All you have are classic Zionist one-liners ("The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity," or your screeching about the rights of right-wing settlers, and on and on).

                      If you go back to this thread, YOU are the one who changed the subject. It was about the boycott. You, ostensibly, claim to be against the occupation (of course, you are not). So, I asked, and I'll ask again, what have you done to end the occupation which you claim to oppose?

                      (and I'll await your attempt to deflect one more time...)

                      •  Right. (0+ / 0-)

                        So you are unable to refute my claim.

                        I have made a statement.  It is this:

                        The Palestinian leadership has done everything it could possibly do to maintain the occupation.

                        I have given you two examples.  The failure to accept Palestinian statehood and the insistence on rockets from Gaza.

                        I have made it clear that the failure of Palestinian leadership to accept statehood has resulted in a continuation of the occupation, which is why they deserve some of the blame.

                        I have also made it clear that it was the rockets from Gaza that caused the blockade and thus the continuation of the occupation there.

                        You now have two options.  You may agree or you may disagree.

                        Thus far, you have done neither.

                        You obviously have not agreed, and I would not expect you to.

                        Nor have you refuted.

                        I would expect a perhaps not so well respected professor of something or other to be able to actually make an argument that is on point to the question.

                        Are you capable of it?

                        As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                        by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 06:50:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  deflect away (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Aunt Martha, unspeakable

                          you are predictable.

                          But, seeing as you insist on a response (while unable to respond to my questions in turn), I'll oblige just this once:

                          The Palestinian leadership has done everything it could possibly do to maintain the occupation.

                          No, the Palestinian leadership is not interested in maintaining the occupation. Such an idea implies many things: that they are uninterested in peace, that they are to blame for their own disenfranchisement, that they enjoy seeing their people suffer, and that the "offers" they have turned down were for true self-determination (they were not). One can critique the Palestinian leadership, as all of us do, without resorting to purposefully incendiary rhetoric about how the oppressed (yes, Palestinians are the ones oppressed here) are interested in maintaining their own oppression. None of the faults of Palestinian leadership (and there are many) justify the occupation, and they certainly do not obscure the reality that the overwhelming responsibility for the occupation lies with the Israeli government. The Palestinian responses to the occupation have been precisely that: reactive responses. Before Hamas existed--there was an occupation. You would do well to keep that in mind. And before Hamas, the PLO was used as the justification of the occupation.

                          As for the "insistence on rockets from Gaza," I'm happy to see that you agree that the occupation there continues, as opposed to the usual mantra that the occupation there has ended. But the rockets coming from Gaza are not the reason for the occupation of the West Bank. There are two different political authorities there. As we've said before, the removal of settlements from Gaza was a strategic move on the part of Israel to wish Gaza away, cordon it off, and maintain control over it while continuing to deny Palestinian sovereignty. Hamas has not given up its violent resistance of the occupation, and Israel has not given up its violence against Palestinians. And while the rockets target civilians, as Israeli policies target Palestinian civilians, I do not support the collective punishment by embargo of Israeli civilians in response, and I would expect a self-described liberal as yourself to oppose the collective punishment of Palestinians. Do you?

                          Now that I've answered your questions: What have you done lately to end the occupation which you claim to oppose?

                          •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)

                            I suspected that you were capable of rational discussion.

                            Unfortunately, however, your argument fails to refute what I have claimed.  It is my claim that the Palestinian leadership, for decades, is responsible for the fate of the Palestinian people, as well as for the occupation as it now exists.  This is obvious because they have consistently refused to accept a Palestinian state and because the rockets from Gaza are the cause of the blockade.

                            Nothing that you have argued refutes this in the least.

                            You state:

                            Such an idea implies many things... that the "offers" they have turned down were for true self-determination (they were not).

                            The offer given to the Jews in ’47 was not good, yet they accepted statehood.  They were offered a fraction of Palestine sans Jerusalem, yet they agreed.  And they built a thriving state.  You claim that none of the offers were good enough.  Are you honestly suggesting that rejecting the ’47 offer or the offer of 2000 was better for the Palestinian people than finally accepting statehood?  In 2000, they were offered 100% of the Gaza, something like 91% of the WB in a contiguous area, and the Arab parts of E Jerusalem for a capital.

                            This is a better deal than the Jews got in ’47, because it at least includes Jerusalem.  Furthermore, if this is unacceptable, what would be acceptable?

                            As for Gaza, you claim this:

                            As we've said before, the removal of settlements from Gaza was a strategic move on the part of Israel to wish Gaza away, cordon it off, and maintain control over it while continuing to deny Palestinian sovereignty.

                            You are therefore claiming that even when Israel ends the occupation of Gaza it is not really doing so.

                            It's almost as if you are enamored of the occupation.

                            What I would argue is that the Palestinian people had an opportunity in 2005 which they threw away.  When Sharon yanked those settlement, the Palestinian people could have raised up a political party that said something like, "Because we wish to live in peace with our neighbors and because we desire the well-being of the Palestinian people, we hope to maintain peaceful relations and economic trade with the Israelis."

                            Instead, the end of the occupation of Gaza was met with rocket fire, thus causing Egypt and Israel to put in a blockade, which represents the continuation of the occupation.

                            Hamas and Islamic Jihad are wholly responsible for the occupation of Gaza.

                            So, really the point is this:

                            Until the Palestinian leadership truly accepts UN 181, the partition, the misery of the Palestinian people will inevitably continue.

                            I forget, tho.

                            Do you favor the two-state solution, the single-state solution, or something else?

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                            by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 07:34:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  re-read (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Aunt Martha, unspeakable

                            what you just wrote and ask yourself why it is that you are unable to have a conversation with Arabs.

                            As for this:

                            It's almost as if you are enamored of the occupation.

                            Yes, you're absolutely right. I'm in love with the settlers.

                            And of course, you did not answer my questions while demanding yours be answered.

                            Typical behavior from you, and once again, proves my point about your lack of desire for dialogue with Palestinians and Arabs. I give you credit though: you did not make any racist comments against me this time. congrats, and goodbye.

                          •  Well, this conversation (0+ / 0-)

                            started with my assertions, which you have been unable to refute.

                            The Palestinian leadership shows no interest in ending the occupation and I have told you why.

                            You have failed to refute my argument.

                            Of course, I know that you are not enamored of the occupation, but one must wonder why you, and others, constantly fling garbage at Israel, when it is the Palestinian leadership, itself, that refuses to end it.

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                            by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 07:44:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look mr fish (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Aunt Martha, unspeakable

                            again, I did refute your argument. Because you do not like the answers I gave you does not mean I did not refute your argument. It means you disagree with me.

                            There are multiple peace plans-- the Road Map, the Arab Peace Initiative--that the Palestinian leadership have signed off on. The party that has not met its obligations here is Israel. So for you to say the Palestinian leadership shows no interest in ending the occupation is not only false, but holds Palestinians responsible for their own oppression. There are some basic things you are unwilling to answer and it is telling:

                            Do you support the collective punishment of Gazan civilians, yes or no?

                            Do you believe that ending the occupation is the responsibility of the occupier or the occupied?

                            And one more time: What have you done to end the occupation which you claim to oppose?

                            If you refuse to answer these questions once again, you will have once again proven how disingenuous your claim to want real dialogue really is.

                          •  Here are the answers to your questions: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            Do you support the collective punishment of Gazan civilians, yes or no?

                            I do.  Very much so.  Because I am a moral monster and a racist.

                            :O)

                            Look, professor, you need to do better than this.  I will answer your questions, but the way you have phrased this one is dishonest.  It is a leading question.  In truth, I should start screaming up and down about how you’re a "racist," how you are feeding the notion that Jews are Evil, but I won’t.

                            What I believe is that Israel needs to downscale the blockade as the rockets cease.  I do believe, however, that a few came over just within the last few days.  Nonetheless, Israel should ease the blockade as the violence against them subsides.  

                            Do you believe that ending the occupation is the responsibility of the occupier or the occupied?

                            Both.  

                            Now that I have realized that the Palestinian leadership truly has no interest in a Palestinian state alongside Israel, what I think Israel should do is take the occupation out of the hands of the Palestinian leadership by ending unilaterally it in the WB.  If I had Netanyahu’s ear, I would recommend that he declare Israel's final borders and pull the IDF behind those borders and then be first to recognize a Palestinian state.

                            And one more time: What have you done to end the occupation which you claim to oppose?

                            I did a bunch of marching against the Iraq war under the banner of ANSWER... unfortunately.  I did go to a rally in SF opposed to Cast Lead and I saw this:

                            Photobucket

                            And this:

                            Photobucket

                            I have done nothing since.

                            I may never march again.

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                            by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 08:53:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The first question (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable, volleyboy1

                            is not a dishonest question at all. The embargo against Gaza is an embargo against the civilian population. There is no getting around that. And considering your strong objections to the academic/cultural boycott of Israel, I can only imagine your response if Israeli civilians were under the kind of blockade Gazans are currently under. This is, in fact, one of the easiest questions of them all. The violence of Hamas does not justify the collective punishment of Palestinian civilians, just as the violence of the IDF does not justify collectively punishing Israeli civilians.

                            As to your other points, yes, I'm aware of your views, and you're aware of what mine would be in response.

                            As for the political marches you attended: As I commented in another post in this diary, political protests on the Israel/Palestine issue often draw crazies and assholes FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT. The Pro-Israel rallies are often filled with anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian rhetoric. I'm sorry you had to witness signs such as those. They do not, however, detract from the fundamentally just nature of the Palestinian struggle, just as a racist at a pro-Israel rally does not detract from the just nature of establishing a homeland for Jews. I am not telling you to ignore those people; and I am not telling you to join them. I am saying that there are progressive movements and organizations for Palestinian justice, the majority of them in fact, that do not traffic in anti-semitism. Jews Against the Occupation is one such group.

                            And as an Iraqi, thank you for marching against the Iraq war. Again, if there were people at those marches carrying offensive signs, they do not impact the inherent rightness and morality of opposing the Iraq war.

                          •  Thank you for this response, Nathan. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            One thing is for sure, we both want a resolution to this nightmare.

                            I just want it to end.

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                            by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 11:36:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  And, just as importantly, (0+ / 0-)

                        are you capable of making your argument, or refutation, without resorting to ad homs or demeaning language?

                        As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

                        by Karmafish on Thu Sep 24, 2009 at 07:00:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  the boycott does not apply to israeli individuals (0+ / 0-)

      if they are acting independently. that goes for

      its artists, writers, and academics.

      the boycot is against the government supported projects and/or institutions supported by gov funds.

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