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View Diary: The Media: Israel and Nuclear Weapons (236 comments)

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  •  Volley, in the spirit of... whatever, (2+ / 0-)
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    Tom J, Marja E

    Would you please get a grip?

    You are not the arbiter of what is good and acceptable, here or anywhere. You contribute in your own way, which is fine, as many of us contribute in our own ways, but it's not up to you to make these ridiculous claims. Let's go through a few of them;

    you assume that it is the movement for Peace and Justice that wants Israel disarmed. I think it is the movement for getting rid of Israel's ability to fight back that wants them disarmed

    -Israel does not need nuclear weapons for the "ability to fight back," ie self defense any more than they US needs them for said purpose. This is just not tenable; Israel is the only undeclared nuclear power in the region where it illegally occupies land and oppresses people; it is all about maintaining its hegemony and 'deterrence' over the region. Funny thing though, is people really don't like living under the gun, and why should they?

    or true peace and justice you would be protesting Hamas as well as Likud - you would be working with Shalom Achshav to understand the Israeli perspective

    -No, he wouldn't, and neither would I. First, I'll not speak for Tom, but I know I work with plenty of Israelis and Israeli/Jewish activist groups and human rights organizations; here's a brief list,

    -B'Tselem
    -Rabbis for Human Rights
    -Anarchists angainst the Wall
    -The Shministim
    -ICHAD
    -PCATI
    -New Profile
    -JVP
    -Gush Shalom

    and the list goes on. Do I work much with Peace Now? Not really, but its just that, you don't get to decide what Israeli groups are kosher and which ones are not, ok? And it is also not up to you to decide whether Tom 'understands the Israeli perspective or not.' Or anyone else here for that matter; give people a chance, they may surprise you.

    And as for protesting Hamas, I'll have to emphatically disagree. The occupation is Israeli, they are the ones in power, and that is the party that will have to end it, not the occupied. Is Hamas perfect? Of course not, but it is not my place to decide which political party that a stateless, occupied people choose for themselves, ok? Would I work with Palestinians for internal political change? Sure, but not while they are under occupation, and certainly not without Palestinians being the leadership of said work. You see, this is one of ISM's core principals, that we work with Palestinian leadership, we do not impose our idea of what is right on others, whether or not it is "for their own good," as some would say.

    romoting non-violent resistance not only to the Israeli occupation but to Hizballah's threats and attacks across the Lebanese borders

    -another equivalence that I must disagree with, as there is just no comparison in scope or in degree to which Israel violates Lebanese territory and airspace versus the opposite; I mean Qana has been bombed to rubble how many times? How many outright invasions and occupations has Israel committed in Lebanon, versus the opposite? I mean Hizballah did not even exist until the invasion/occupation of 1982, and that was after multiple incursions by Israel in the late 70's.

    demanding the release of Palestinian Political Prisoners and you would be demanding the release of Gilad Shalit.

    -So, over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners, all people with names and families and friends, and one Israeli prisoner; Of course I want freedom for them all, but it is very clear who is the occupied and who is the occupier; solve this problem, and Shalit goes free and no political prisoners are needed, by anyone.

    supporting the Greens in Iran because even though they are no freind of Israel they are not Mahmoud "Holocaust, what Holocaust?" Ahmadinejhad

    -You know, when Juan Cole wrote about his horrible statements recently, I posted it to my fb page; I also posted articles which compared Obama's reaction to Neda's killing with is non reaction to my friend Basem's murder. I support true grassroots democratic change & non violent resistance both here, in I/P, in Iran, everywhere. I have a number of friends that work on this issue particularly, and there are many links between said groups in the area. What Tom thinks or does on this, that's for him to say, but you are assuming here, and it's not fair. imho.

    That's all for now, but I really think that you need to take a step back ok? I mean, the more that you jump out there with bold pronouncements of Israel's permanence and right to exist and such, the more I see the moral dilemmas, the insecurity and the existential distress that produces said statements.

    •  Ok Let's go through them (3+ / 0-)
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      JNEREBEL, arielle, Karmafish

      You said:

      You are not the arbiter of what is good and acceptable, here or anywhere. You contribute in your own way, which is fine, as many of us contribute in our own ways, but it's not up to you to make these ridiculous claims.

      Where did I make the claim to be the arbiter of what's good and acceptable? I said: "I think....." That Jon, means it is my opinion. You don't like my opinion - bully for you. I happen to think I am right.

      You said:

      Israel is the only undeclared nuclear power in the region where it illegally occupies land and oppresses people; it is all about maintaining its hegemony and 'deterrence' over the region.

      This is a complicated passage - to some Israel's "illegal" occupation of land dates to 1948. For some and most international bodies it dates to 1967. For me - I personally (there is that word again) do not consider the occupation illegal (despite what you and the UN and the EU and millions of others say). Why don't I consider it illegal. Because of the way it came about and the circumstances under which it should be ended. I consider the occupation to be wrong but not "illegal". Ending the occupation is a tricky business and not one that can happen by just an Israeli withdrawal. It needs to be worked on.

      As for Israeli Nukes:

      Israel's nukes are about self defense. If they weren't there - there might have been (I think a good probabiility) some major wars that were deterred. Since Israel has not been irresponsible with it's nukes I have no problem with them having them. Further, I personally think they guarantee Israeli survival.

      This is an interesting comment:

      Would I work with Palestinians for internal political change? Sure, but not while they are under occupation, and certainly not without Palestinians being the leadership of said work. You see, this is one of ISM's core principals, that we work with Palestinian leadership, we do not impose our idea of what is right on others, whether or not it is "for their own good," as some would say.

      I emphatically disagree with this in one regard. Particularly this sentence: "Sure but not while they are under occupation....." I agree that Palestinians should be at the forefront of their own leadership (And it doesn't matter whether I agree or not). That is only right. However, think on the Yishuv had Begin been in a position of power rather than Ben-Gurion. Now I know you disagree with me regarding the Haganah but, thank god that people were involved with making sure Haganah won out. Can you imagine if Begin or Shamir had won that political struggle?

      Ok as for the groups you work with, Kol ha'kavod... I support that those groups want peace. I don't agree with everything they say just as you don't agree with Shalom Achshav. Ain Biyah.  

      Now on to Lebanon:

      I had friends who fought in that war and it was during that time that I lived there. You said:

      -another equivalence that I must disagree with, as there is just no comparison in scope or in degree to which Israel violates Lebanese territory and airspace versus the opposite; I mean Qana has been bombed to rubble how many times? How many outright invasions and occupations has Israel committed in Lebanon, versus the opposite? I mean Hizballah did not even exist until the invasion/occupation of 1982, and that was after multiple incursions by Israel in the late 70's.

      I have to say I disagree 100%. Lebanon did not happen in a vacuum. The invasion had to happen in my opinion. The occupation of the South lasted far too long however the indiscrimminate shelling and attacks against civilians in Kiryat Shmona needed a response. Perhaps if you were running a nation you might not strike back when your citizens were threatened but I disagree with that. Notice BTW, that until the shelling of Kiryat Shmona took place the Israelis were not fighting on Lebanese territory. They were shelled, they responded. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

      This:

      So, over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners, all people with names and families and friends, and one Israeli prisoner; Of course I want freedom for them all, but it is very clear who is the occupied and who is the occupier; solve this problem, and Shalit goes free and no political prisoners are needed, by anyone.

      There should be no political prisoners but, criminal acts like kidnapping should not be tolerated either. There are not two standards of morality based on occupied and occupier. If you are as bad as the occupier (or the converse) then you have no moral standing. The Yishuv was not brutal DESPITE what you say. The Irgun was. Jon, history is not selective.

      Then there is this:

      That's all for now, but I really think that you need to take a step back ok? I mean, the more that you jump out there with bold pronouncements of Israel's permanence and right to exist and such, the more I see the moral dilemmas, the insecurity and the existential distress that produces said statements.

      I have a lot of existential distress about Israel. From both sides - that is the problem with Supporters and the Israeli Left. You don't offer Israel a place and the Right is destroying it from within. "But take a step back, ok?" Ummm didn't you chastize me above about taking on too much. What gives you that moral authority. At least I said: "I think.....". Tell you what - why don't you take a step back. All I see is ever more hysterical and hypocritical attacks on Israel. IN MY OPINION If you want to get mainstream Israelis to work with you - you are going about it very much the wrong way.

      How do we end Practice? We end practice with a Team Fight! ---- My five year old at the end of his soccer practice.

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:05:32 PM PDT

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