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  •  That is an impressive (0+ / 0-)

    act of equivocation. See, the GOP does have proposals (tort reform, cross state boundaries), they just suck. What Grayson presented as the Republican plan, was actually the implications of the Republican plan. He did the same thing Palin did with "death panels" - infer and project.

    I can't believe you're arguing that he was making a factual case. You must know that he was making a political one.

    "Karl Rove giving Dems advice is the DEFINITION of 'Concern Troll'" - punkdavid

    by Darkmoth on Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 12:48:41 PM PDT

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    •  Hardly, my friend (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not a lawyer. But it seems rather obvious that a proposal does not equal a plan, just as an amendment does not amount to a bill. Inference is a legitimate form of reasoning. But any legitimate form of reasoning can be misused. All you can do to guard against that is to examine whether each inference is warranted by the facts from which it is made. So:

      1. Was there absolutely anything in the bills to warrant the inference Palin made (or better yet, the inference of Betty Macaughey, who really started the death panels crap)? No. The only mention of end-of-life care in ANY of the bills was authorization for reimbursment of endo-of-life counseling if families asked for it. For pity's sake, how is it warranted on that basis alone to infer that people will then be executed en masse by official decree?
      1. We do agree that there is no comprehensive GOP health care reform plan, do we not? We also agree that the Harvard study Grayson waved at the cameras does exist, yes? If so, then what is the logical inference to be made about the GOP's default "plan" for health-care reform? That it consists of no more than the two rules Grayson quoted? Seems at least possible to me. And Grayson invited them to prove him wrong. All he got was a demand for an apology.

      That's about as clear as I can make it. If you still find that equivocal, I'm afraid I don't know how to answer you.

      This is the space age. Time to look beyond this rundown, radioactive, cop-rotten planet. - Bill Burroughs

      by willibro on Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 01:31:47 PM PDT

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      •  our disagreement is minor (0+ / 0-)

        I think he was giving them the "business", you think he was laying out a case. It could be a bit of both. I suspect we both support the guy, and are happy with his effect on the conversation.

        That's all that really matters, IMO.

        "Karl Rove giving Dems advice is the DEFINITION of 'Concern Troll'" - punkdavid

        by Darkmoth on Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 01:48:13 PM PDT

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        •  Perhaps (0+ / 0-)

          I do think he was trying to make a case in addition to staging a sort of stunt with his cards to "give them the business". And as I tried to point out in another response to you, stunts have unexpected, nonlinear consequences. So: Dangerous.

          I'm interested to know what you'd think if Grayson had accused the GOP of being "terrorists" on HCR. He could have done that in his speech, you know. KO did that on "Countdown" a few days ago, when he accused insurance companies of being "at war" with the American people. It would have just been another little step to turn his (admittedly political at basis) case into a more overtly political stunt/attack.

          So: More effective or less than what he did do?

          This is the space age. Time to look beyond this rundown, radioactive, cop-rotten planet. - Bill Burroughs

          by willibro on Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 02:17:49 PM PDT

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          •  Terrorists would have been (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            willibro

            a step too far, IMO. I think "die quickly" was an inspired way to take the Right's own rhetoric and reverse it. They had already made that area fair game. "Terrorists" would have been a (somewhat baffling) escalation, and this goes to your point about unintended consequences.

            Grayson is one of those guys with true political talent, he seems to know where the line is instinctively, and how to toe it. There's a rec listed diary up on how he BLASTS the GOP and - far from apologizing -  mocks them for even asking for it.

            Being used to milquetoast Dems, I do worry sometimes that he'll go too far. But so far, he seems to know what he's doing.

            "Karl Rove giving Dems advice is the DEFINITION of 'Concern Troll'" - punkdavid

            by Darkmoth on Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 02:32:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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