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View Diary: The End of Outrage (210 comments)

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  •  Thanks for that (4.00)
    It is that simple.

    I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin'

    by Armando on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:40:27 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  yes (4.00)
      it really is.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:51:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Torturegate (4.00)
      I believe this is worse than Watergate, worse even, than voter fraud and Votergate.  For the reasons stated in this excellent diary, the torture memo drafted by Gonzalez, together with what now is his and Bush's, and by extension, OUR, "official torture policy" (it has not been rescinded), is as bad if not worse than any atrocity our government has previously committed because it is so overtly coming from and ordered by the top.  I think you have to go back to the forced moves of Native Americans (where Government officials knew how many would die) to find something so odius and evil that was directly orchestrated and ordered by the President.  But even that was not a plan to sanction the torture of other human beings by government officials and personnel.  

      I would also note one other thing that makes this absurd: torture does not work.  This has been noted in many of the articles about FBI agents and others who tried to blow the whistle on Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.  However, some in the media, including editors at prominent papers that I have gone back and forth with on this issue, continue to believe that torture during questioning is justified if it could save 1 American life.  In addition to getting the media to fully display all the pictures AGAIN (not for sensationalism but to show the extent of the horror), we must get the point across that torture is ineffective.  Just getting the media to publish the pictures again will definitely turn up the heat on Gonzalez.  I think it would also be interesting to ask Gonzalez what in his background qualified him to be writing such memos.  Did he used to be a cop or prosecutor?  Did he ever use torture to question witnesses?  If Gonzalez knew that torture was ineffective, Gonzalez was essentially sanctioning torture FOR THE SAKE OF TORTURE.  

      Thank you Armando for elevating this issue to the front page.  It is an excellent diary.  I know many of us have been tearing our hair out about the Gonzalez nomination and we are looking to organize to do something about it.  Now, with the Kerik withdrawal, the Bush juggernaut has shown weakness.  Perhaps this is an opportunity for us.  We should explore it, and we must get our Dem Senators to pile on.  

      I know at least 10 Kossacks who are posting on this on a regular basis.  Can we get the next post to be a call to arms for Kossacks and a list of things we can do in a coordinated way as the nomination hearings approach?

      •  not rescinded (none)
        Precisely, see my update.

        I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin'

        by Armando on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:54:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  FILIBUSTER Scenario (4.00)
          Why don't we Kossacks write a draft filibuster for each of our Democratic Senators?  As a start, I have chosen Sen. Byrd, who was so eloquent in his stand against the DHS.  Please help me draft his filibuster speech by posting your revisions and extensions in replies!!

          Sen. Byrd:  My fellow Senators, I have stack of pictures in my office.  It is a stack that is 10 feet high.  This stack of pictures documents a horrific, Apolocalyse Now scenario that was directed and sanctioned by the man this President now seeks to install as Attorney General.  I might add that this man's memo created a policy of torture that remains the official policy of the United States.  

          I will now endeavor to describe each and every picture and enter those descriptions into the record of our esteemed body, so that Americans of future generations will know that there were those in this country and this Senate who spoke out against this odious and nefarious, and un-American policy, and against the man who brought it into creation.

          The first exhibit...

          •  Wouldn't it make more sense (none)
            to bombard the members of the Senate Judiciary Committee with email, faxes, etc.?  I don't know who the new members will be come January, but the present members are people like Biden, who was GREAT on the need to observe the Geneva Convention.  His own son is in the fray, and he explained that we need to observe it for a lot of reasons, but for a good practical reason - if we don't, then when our guys get captured, the enemy won't.  We don't want to set that precedent, do we?  Sometimes I think the practical reasons may be the only ones that might get through to these people (though even that one didn't get through).

            Anyway, some of the committee assignments should survive - Leahy, Kennedy, Schumer, Biden, ther's a whole bunch of good Senators for us on this committee.  If we have good questions or info, send it their way.  They know how to ask the tough questions, and Schumer leaks to the press better than any politician I know.  At least if the committee hearings are loud, this won't be like a tree falling in the forest.

      •  It is (none)
        We had a crisis then, but this goes to our safety abroad forever. Our troops' safety, our world image, everything is changed by this. We have a huge stain on our country now.
        Contrast this to our image abroad during the Cold War.  Huge difference.
      •  Torture at Guantanamo (none)
        The lack of coverage of this has been astounding, and is yet another part of the outrage. The United States - beacon of liberty and freedom, ant the self-declared protector of morality in the world, is intentionally and willfully engaging in the torture of other human beings, some of whom may be innocent and were merely swept up in the chaos of war.

        Make no mistake, our children and grandchildren will be talking about this and asking us "why?" Why was nothing done? What did you do about it? This episode of our history will make the forced internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II look like a an after school detention in comparison. We will look back with great, great shame.

        Torturing other individuals, for any reason, is morally repugnant and completely unacceptable. I don't care who they are and what they did. When you become what you despise, the transition is complete - you have slid into the morass of evil.

        No issue right now, neither the voting issue nor other aspects of the war, make me more ashamed to be an American than what we are doing at Guantanamo in the supposed name of self-defense.

        How long will the media and my fellow countrymen continue to simple overlook this?

        We are no better than the Germans who stood idly by ignoring the concentration camp at the edge of town.

      •  Let's start with (none)
        more new leaked photos. We KNOW that there are worse ones and we need someone with some real moral COURAGE to come forth with them.

        Maybe there is another copy of the original CD. Kept in a safe.

        People were shocked over the first pictures but could justify the abuse because at the time, there were a lot of beheadings happening. And also so many have no compassion for the Iraqui people. As far as they are concerned, these people are responsible for the WTC. WRONG.

        My thought was that if we want people to treat our troops fairly, then we have to adhere to that rule also. Torture is torture.  

        Wonder what would have happened if these detainees were Americans? McCain leading the outcry?

        We need the worse pictures and we need to point out that most of the detainees have been freed because they were innocent. And we wonder why they hate us.

        Where are you Deep Throat?

      •  Kerik Tie in (none)
        Must be noted that our newly nominated DHS Secretary has made a fortune off of tools used to torture detainees, tasers.

        I suspect the one case of Special Ops that is being investigated is not the only one.

        Basically a tacit approval....

    •  How? (none)
      But how do we get them to do this? Go on an email deluge campaign?

      An engineer who believes that facts still matter

      by shark on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:16:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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