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View Diary: Gallup: Record support for legalizing marijuana (334 comments)

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  •  Less time outdoors? No way. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blackjackal

    How do you figure? - You get one harvest a year outdoors...indoors you can turn a crop every 8 to 10 weeks by controlling the light cycle to induce flowering.

    Besides, outdoor grows get eaten and stolen.

    You think you could make a living on 20 dollar ounces?

    Lets see...$20.00 x 16 = 320.000 a pound

    50,000 / 320 = 156 pounds of pot a year.

    That's a mighty big back yard you've got.

    All these figures of imaginary price reductions are just that - Imaginary.

    The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

    by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 06:49:36 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  By 'time' I meant labor. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, reflectionsv37

      For buds, 1 plant per square yard. Very conservatively, 3 plants to a pound of finished buds, so for 150 lbs, 450 square yards, or 1/10th of an acre.



      When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

      by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 07:13:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Compared to @400 gr/sq. yard X 5-6 crops a year? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blackjackal

        Not to mention the issues of pest control, nutrient regulation, free air pollination, propigation effort...

        I can't see a scenario where, after regulation/legalization, there is going to be any change in the way most pot is grown. The market is already established, and there will be no seismic shift.

        The huge refinement in the genetic qualities of contemporary, medical grade cannabis is directly related to the advanced growing techniques being applied. There may still be a market for lower grade pot, but I haven't seen any indication of it.

        The reality is, that behind the scenes, the industry standards are already being established in the truest "free market" sense in California.

        Go check out the reviews of co-ops on weedmaps.com for an eye-opening look at consumer expectations from Medical Pot Providers...

        The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

        by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 08:01:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's not a free market test (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cotterperson

          with prohibition driving prices, and in turn driving production indoors to avoid ripoffs.

          California, too needs irrigation, not a factor in the rest of the country.

          The only pest problem we used to get in Wisconsin was moth larvae, much less so since the introduction of BT corn, so there's no breeding area in the cornfields.

          Nutrients don't need to be regulated in the field, just use good soil, add compost as needed.

          Pollination? So what. A few seeds don't hurt.

          You can continue paying $400 an ounce if you like. I don't consider our outdoor crop any lower grade than your factory farmed.



          When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

          by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 08:09:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong. Med Pot is not prohibited in CA. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            snakelass

            So, In California, at least, prohibition isn't the primary factor deciding the medical marijuana market anymore.

            The indoor grows are not just about security, they are about quality control. Co-ops do not want mediocre product...it hurts their business. They focus on the rarest and most exotic strains, most of which do not lend themselves to outdoor grows.
            If you look at a seed bank site, notice that most of the exotics are light grow only.

            If you have a choice of 100 dispensaries that you can purchase from, your are not experiencing prohibition. The ones that get a bad rep for poor quality and sketchy atmosphere go under fast. The legitimate ones flourish.

            Sounds fairly free market to me..of course I'm a liberal, so I be could misunderstanding the concept of free market. ;-)

            I think you are confusing the requirements and opportunity of a casual recreational pot user, with those of people with legitimate medical needs, and that by doing so, you are having a negative impact on the legitimacy of the issue.

            I don't suppose you happened to see last months cover article in Forbes magazine - Medical Marijuana, Inc.?

            Very interesting read...I suggest you take a look for it if you haven't seen it. It might help open your eyes to what is going on out here.

            The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

            by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 08:49:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The most important work out there (0+ / 0-)

              is Harborside's testing for biological contaminants.

              I don't consider the differences in potency in "exotic" strains, by themselves, all that important.



              When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

              by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 08:59:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Many patients do. (0+ / 0-)

                If you aren't medicating to control high levels of pain, then you really aren't qualified to judge.

                I believe the focus here is on Medical Marijuana, is it not?

                Once again - the disconnect is between recreational use, and medicinal use, and the specific condition a person may be medicating for.

                The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

                by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 09:51:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's the cannibinoid profile, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cotterperson

                  the ratio of cannibinoids, which determines suitability for a given medical application. Strictly quantitative potency can be compensated for by using a bit more.



                  When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

                  by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 10:16:46 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •   those of us with weak lungs (0+ / 0-)

                    like me do enjoy being able to take 2 small hits of Purple Kush instead of having to do a big bowl or a joint. I haven't been able to handle the papers for a couple yrs. While I love using the vape it seems to take more than a small bowl and I don't like to waste a bit.

                    "The Dream Lives On", Sen. Teddy Kennedy

                    by SmileySam on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 11:44:28 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I take it you don't use it for medical issues? (0+ / 0-)

                    From your casual dismissal to "just up your intake". If you have to pay 60 to 80 dollars a day for pain control, upping your intake may not be financially feasible.

                    I understand all about "cannabinoids (sp)".
                    The fact is that genetics and controls those profiles. Consistency maintains those profiles. Careful manipulation alters those profiles, as well as modifying yield, grow time, scent, taste, resistance to pests and disease....Just as those same controls apply to any commercial crop.

                    The big co-ops out here actually perform gas chromatography on the spot to quantify potency, and to identify any toxic substances.

                    The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

                    by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 11:50:37 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Harborside's doing the tests for the rest. (0+ / 0-)

                      Steve DeAngelo, the proprietor, was my roomate in DC in the late '70s.

                      I mention elsewhere that I consider their work on testing the mot important research new underway.

                      Not all patients can afford $60 to $80 a day, noir the space and lighting to do their own indoior. Outdoors ius the way to go to get costs way down.



                      When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

                      by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 12:07:29 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  teaching Ben about Pot is a waste of your time (0+ / 0-)

                  He probably knows more about it than most of us do. He has been involved for as long as I have if not longer. I've been smoking pot off and on for over 42 yrs, with a few yrs of farming thrown in during my younger yrs.

                  "The Dream Lives On", Sen. Teddy Kennedy

                  by SmileySam on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 11:36:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Perhaps it's a waste of my time (0+ / 0-)

                    but not for the reason you suggest.

                    Like I said, he is a great proponent of pot politics, and I fully support his work.

                    However, his actually knowledge when it comes to cultivation is not especially sophisticated or accurate.
                    Just take a look out on the web to see where the methodology and technology actually is today. Or visit your local grow shop.

                    So just because he is represents himself as the local "pot expert" to this community, doesn't mean he actually has superior knowledge of Medical Marijuana in California, or horticulture, or botanical genetics.
                    I've smoked pot for a long time too...that isn't how you gain knowledge about growing it, anymore than eating corn teaches you to be a farmer.

                    That is why I laugh every time he pronounces how easy it is.

                    Trust me...I know. I can pretty much guarantee I have more experience than Ben or you.

                    Ed Rosenthal - Expert on Pot Cultivation

                    Ben Masel - Well intention voice unfortunately perpetuating myths and half truths.
                    .

                    The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

                    by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 12:07:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ed and I go back to the Nixon years. (0+ / 0-)

                      We were arrested together in 1978.

                      I won't claim 20% of his expertise in indoor technique, but for outdoor we're NEAR parity. We both testify as Expert Witnesses for defendants.



                      When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

                      by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 12:12:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Then you should know better. (0+ / 0-)

                        Yeah...I met Ed in the 70's too, and I imagine he would dispute many of your assertions about the ease of cultivation. We can all break out our High Times cred from those counter culture days gone by....

                        And yes...I started out by growing outdoors also, so I do know what is involved.

                        Sorry, dude...like I said - I have mucho respect for you, but we are obviously talking about two entirely different worlds here.

                        The reality of a commercial model is already in place in California, and it happens indoors for reasons other than what you continue to insist are statutory versus practical. Maybe it will work differently in Wisconsin if your law passes, and I sure hope it does, but let's face - California is the place where the model is being defined and battled. Seasonal availability for medical patients isn't part of the model. Changing the legal status won't alter that part of the equation, no matter what.

                        De-legitimizing the people who are putting the effort into maintaining those high standards and building a legitimate legal industry by claims of "anyone can do it..it's easy" doesn't support that goal, or the reality for people that don't know any better. It's hard enough, because there are plenty of fly by night folks looking to take advantage of loopholes in the law...we shouldn't make it harder for the ones that are trying to do the right thing.

                        I thought part of the point is to stop the mis-information.

                        I'm surprised you don't see that.

                        The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

                        by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 12:58:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I apologise if my tone (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Razorblade

                          at the beginning of our discussion came off dismissive, however, there's still the problem of price. A model that leaves patients spending up to $80 a day is not adequate for those not in that income bracket, and the only way I see to really bring prices down is to move production, not necessarily all of it, outdoors.

                          A product that's free of infestatation is most important. potency's secondary. While outdoor plants will be exposed to more spores, etc, their greater vigor provides some defense.



                          When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

                          by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 01:13:12 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  and I don't think you could maintain the supply (0+ / 0-)

                            or quality relying on an outdoor model, at least in California, and I think your costs would just be shifted versus minimized. I disagree that  in a medical and commercial context, that potency and genetic characteristics are a lesser consideration. One person, in good shape, growing enough in his back yard for light personal use, sure...you can make it work if you aren't too picky about the results.

                            But a co-op is limited in the amount it can have on hand at any one time - if they were to stock up on enough to supply their full member base for a year, they would get shut down for non-compliance. The current system works because there is a constant flow of small amounts from a variety of different members and providers into the co-ops on a daily basis. That can only be accomplished thru indoor growth cycle methods. Nobody wants six month old buds when you can have something nice and fresh 10 days after harvest.

                            Not everyone can or would grow their own, so the reality is what it is. Someone is going to be growing it all year around locally The only way to do that is inside.

                            I agree the cost is too high, but I am trying to make the point about why, and whether it is a fair price considering the expense and effort required. You seem to think not...My experience suggests otherwise.

                            But I think we are boring everyone else, so we will just have to agree to disagree, and keep fighting the good fight together.

                            The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

                            by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 01:58:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In San Diego, It's only legal to grow inside (0+ / 0-)

                            or in a locked greenhouse. They'll get you for plants in the open if they see them. Part of the local control issues.

                            So even if I thought it was a better method, I would still be prohibited if I wished to stay compliant.

                            The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

                            by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 02:16:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The context in which we began this thread (0+ / 0-)

                            was a post-prohibition environment.

                            One of the few tweaks we made from the michigan law in the Wisconsin bill was in allowing patients to opt to grow their plants outdoors.

                            Michigan's does not allow dispensaries. we kicked that can down the road, in authorising the State Dept. of Health and Family Services to create a model for dispensaries, while the initial implementation, like Michigan, calls for the patient or their designated caregiver to grow 12 plants at a time, of which 3 are mature. Those regs tilt towards indoor, at least foer most of the year.

                            (Caregivers are limited to supplying 5 patients at a time.)

                            I'm not crazy about these limits. Our sponsor wanted to stick lose to the Michigan model so that he could argue to colleagues that 'voters in a District with demographics much like yours approved it by x%.' Also, that 'This won't be like California,' since your model, rightly or wrongly, has been painted out here as 'anything goes.'



                            When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

                            by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 06:30:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah I realize it was beside the original point.. (0+ / 0-)

                            I was just sharing, for your edification.

                            The GOP - Bringing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems

                            by Razorblade on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 06:43:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  I have to question your crop yield? (0+ / 0-)

        I've always gotten about one pound of nice buds per plant. Ooops! Never mind!!!

        Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

        by reflectionsv37 on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 11:35:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Shorter season in Wisconsin (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          reflectionsv37

          and I said very conservatively.

          I've generally deliberately planted late, sacrificing yield for reduced visibility.

          In a post-prohibition environment, that wouldn't be a consideration.



          When did Vietnam become Nixon's War?

          by ben masel on Tue Oct 20, 2009 at 12:15:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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