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View Diary: On the difficulty of keeping ducks in a row (105 comments)

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  •  Heard Ed Scultz saying today Obama (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nate Roberts, Predictor, Losty

    sold out. Obama is telling the progressives take it, this is all you are going to get and call it a victory.

    •  Ed Schultz has lost it. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askew, JC from IA

      Obama wants reform. Progressives in congress want reform but there are some Democrats who either don't want reform or aren't willing to go all the way. Basically, Obama is telling progressives that people who want reform should be ready to make compromises since people who don't want reform have no qualms in killing it.

      •   It's not reform to me if I have a mandate (4+ / 0-)

        to buy private insurance but don't have a public option to buy from.

        •  Seriously, how likely do you think it is that (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ferg, askew, Nate Roberts, Losty

          Congress will pass something sure to piss off voters all across the spectrum?

          I think not very.

        •  Of course, it is (0+ / 0-)

          reform. Just because it doesn't go as far as you don't want it to doesn't mean it isn't reform. Bringing millions of people who have been excluded for various reasons IS reform.

          •  Go as far as I want? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nate Roberts, Predictor

            Are you kidding? How much more can we pay for insurance that leaves you bankrupt when you have to use it?

            Where are the caps? I can't find them.
            But I can find the fines if you don't buy it.

            •  Why not actually read (0+ / 0-)

              the bills that are on table? There will be fines if you can afford the insurance and don't buy it which is important if you want to bring the overall costs down.

              •  It won't bring down the costs. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Blutodog, Predictor

                The insurance companies will keep moving the costs higher and higher. And I tell you why. Because they are going to lose money covering people with preexisting conditions which they have successfully been denying claims on (though I think they will find ways not to pay).

            •  Exactly! (3+ / 0-)

              Nothing in this bill caps costs NOTHING! In fact the Health Ins. Vampires are already raising them as we speak! This bill is nothing more for them than an excuse to whack us even harder. Obama and the Dems. don't seem to understand that we aren't dealing with a bunch of people that give a flying fuck about the Health of anything more then their own bottom lines! Either you play  hardball to win against these pricks or you get rolled and that's exactly what has happened with this phony ass bill! It's just another fucking bail out for another group that has caused the problem in the 1st place. It's insanity to believe that just giving these bastards even more power and $$ from each of us as customers and as tax payers is rational. It's just doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, the very definition of insanity! Obama and his advisors have already done this with the Bankster and look at the result! They've kept the $$ and stuck a BIG fat middle finger in all of our faces! No JOBS, but their profits are fatter then ever thanks to US! This is just more of the same BS. The dickless spineless corrupt Motherfucking DINOcrats are handing us all over to another bunch of heartless greedy bloodsucking Vampires and they think or want us to think this is REAL CHANGE no less! What gall these assholes have! I hope they get their heads handed to them next yr. and as for Obama he needs to read his own friggin speeches. He's full of it to.

              "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

              by Blutodog on Fri Oct 30, 2009 at 07:21:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  The Public Option was the friggin Compromise! (4+ / 0-)

        The problem here from the start is that Obama took the REAL solution off the table with his illogical claim  that we have to live with the hand were already been dealth , meaning a Private health Ins. system no matter how fucked up it is. That was utter BS! We didn't elect this man on the promise to maintain the obscene profits of the DEATH CARE Ins. companies! Once Single Payer / MEDICARE for all was removed it was over before it started! The PO was then going to be bargained away and what we've ended up with is a very weak Death Caare Ins. reform that ultimately will make things even worse because NO effective mechinism is in these bills to stop the rising cost and the increasing shrinkage of these products. No real competition is being fostered with this phony watered down PO. It's nothing more then a facade. What will however happen is the Ins. Vampires will insist the Mandate is strictly enforced and the sheep are herded into their policies or else! They will also suck the treasury dry for their Wall st. masters to pay for the millions that will NOT beable to afford the ever rising costs of their products. They will complain that all of this is because they can no longer keep the sick and the near elderly out of their plans and they can no longer easily dump people when they get sick! This will be true somewhat but not totally since I'll bet the loopholes in these bills regarding those matters are big enough to drive a Mac truck through.
          In summary this bill that Nancy P. is saying is the best we can get is a huge SHIT TACO that will only get even worse after being merged with the crap the Seante has vomited up. In the end even this piece of grabage will be Filibusterred by the GOPERS as to radical!  If the Progressives had any BALLS which they obviously don't they'd toss this joke in the trash can and let the system wind down to it's inevitable collapse! This bill will fail spectacularly as a non-solution . It's nothing more then a HUGE give away to the SAME VAMPIRES already soaked in our blood. It's WALL ST bail out 2. IT SUCKS!

        "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

        by Blutodog on Fri Oct 30, 2009 at 07:02:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Single payer was never (0+ / 0-)

          on the table. You just imagined that public option was the compromise. Nobody in the position of actually making compromises ever considered single payer. Secondly, stop with the "We didn't elect this man on the promise to maintain the obscene profits of the DEATH CARE Ins. companies!". Obama never ran on single payer. Obama never ran against health insurance companies or he ever promised to shut them down. He ran for healthcare reform in order to bring millions into the system who have been excluded for various reasons and to reduce costs.

          •  NEVER on the TABLE (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Beowulf, Nate Roberts, Predictor

            Exactly my pt. You never start a negotiation by asking for what u want. You ask for 150% more any neophyte trader knows that. By NEVER even asking for what he even admits in public is the real reform he basically signaled the other side he wasn't really serious about reforming anything.

            "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

            by Blutodog on Fri Oct 30, 2009 at 07:26:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's absurd logic. (0+ / 0-)

              The question isn't whether you ask 10% more for a used honda? You do but the question is whether you can ask an asking price of a million dollar for a 2002 Nissan. You can't. US existing healthcare system and single payer don't lie on the same axis. There is no demand for single payer among the people or in the congress or at The Presidential level. The demand doesn't exist so it was never on the table.

              •  I just watched NOW on PBS (4+ / 0-)

                about Denmark and what they are doing regarding global warming. I am once again amazed as I often am when I turn my eyes to other countries. They are acting reasonably and trying to do what is right for the whole country. Not what is right for a few powerful oil or coal companies.

                I always forget how rational most other countries are in the way they approach policy.

                I am very, very convinced after watching this health care debate unfold this country is doomed. Really doomed. Every last bill that is written is written by special interests to screw the people. And we seem powerless to stop it. Time after time.

                When are we going to face it, our system is broken beyond repair?

                •  Climate change bill will (0+ / 0-)

                  be equally flawed so what are our options? It's either you take the incremental progress and live to fight another day or you kill even the incremental progress. I'm going with option a) because that's just the reality at this time. The system is flawed and no one is interested in revolution ( Hell, you cannot get 5000 people to come out and march for 2 hours for HCR) so it's either small steps or status quo.

                  •  We could save ourselves (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    a generation of pain and suffering if we came to grips with it and demanded a constitutional convention.

                    I will never forget getting off the bus in Washington DC going to protest the Iraq war and thinking I can't believe I am doing this a decade later with a Bush in the White House invading the same country. I never could have predicted in a million years that could come to past but by god it did.

                    I used to save newspapers for long periods of time and when I would periodically go through them to throw them out the headlines from years past could have been written that day. We fight the same battles over and over and over and never win. Never.

                  •  then pick no change over a pittance of change. (0+ / 0-)

                    And let everything stop.  really.  I'm not kidding.
                    Enoughs enough.
                    Lets stop the BS and just end this system.

                    Sure there will be problems, but we need something else.  This isnt working, and its got no hope of working in the future. We all know it.

              •  No demand? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Nonsense. Single Payer when explained as a Medicare style Option is wildly popular.

                "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

                by Blutodog on Sat Oct 31, 2009 at 07:42:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I'm with you. This bill is going to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Blutodog, Predictor

          just make it a crime for us to not buy their crap insurance at obscene prices.

          It's not going to fix anything, least of all cost.

          As the economy falters in the next several years many many business will first offer their employees only high deductible policies while raising they amount the employees must pay and second will drop health insurance altogether.

        •  "Let the system wind down ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          ... to it's inevitable collapse ..."

          And the thousands who die while this happens, on the way to Utopia in 3,5,10,17,29 years?  Collateral damage.  Because we have to stand firm on 'principle.'

          Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

          by Tuffie on Fri Oct 30, 2009 at 09:26:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Ed's got his panties in a bunch. (0+ / 0-)

      According to him last night, his 'progressives' are the only reason Obama is in office, so he 'owes' them.

      Which begs the question: Did these same 'progressives' elect Bush two cycles in a row, then?  Why?

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