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View Diary: O'Reilly the Coward (190 comments)

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  •  You have to understand the backround (none)
    Realize that Brock is the worst kind of threat to the right-wingers.  He was one of them.  In one of their inner circles.  And he turned on them and exposed some of their dirty secrets.

    Thus, it is particularly critical to the right wing that he must be marganilized and destroyed to discredit and limit the impact of his disclosures.

    That said, I personally have no use for Brock.  Once an opportunist and partisan flack always an opportunist and partisan flack.  (Were you lying then or lying now?)

    I would rather beat right-wingers through a legitimate debate (and legitimate attacks) rather than winning by becoming worse than them.

    •  Brock is pond scum, but... (none)
      I highly recommend his book, "The Republican Noise Machine." Know thy enemy.

      In politics, sometimes the jackasses are on your side.

      by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 02:33:35 PM PST

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        •  You and Richard Mellon Scaife (none)
          evidently think a lot alike about David Brooks.

          I am surprized you bad-mouth the guy. I find his website to be excellent, and his interview Thursday on Terry Gross was very forthright and informative.

          It puzzles me to no end why posters on this site are so quick to smear people who are working hard at publicizing republican/conservative corruption and manipulation of the media.  Brooks is the fifth democrat "fighter" this month I have seen being damned with faint praise, slurred with innuendo, and discredited over trivial "shortcomings", on the threads and diaries of Dkos in an vigorous and most exuberant manner.

          I just don't understand it.

      •  Dunno - (4.00)
        ... I think Brock and Huffington, both "former Conservatives" - are great for the Dems.

        Also note, the "former Conservatives" are much more intelligent, rational and articulate than the "former Liberals" like Zell and Horewitz. Brock has been very well-spoken, well-modulated and quite effective since he crossed-over [from what I have seen and read.]

        The more neocons who 'get religion' and join our side, the better.

        Those who fail to learn from history...are invited to submit an application for a position in the Bush administration.

        by Timoteo on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 02:39:23 PM PST

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        •  Anyone know (none)
          what changed Arianna?

          I'm a member of a minority group: the reality-based community.

          by Unstable Isotope on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 05:25:44 PM PST

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          •  Al Franken (none)
            seriously...they did this stupid "in bed" skit thing throughout the '92 (?) election ccle on one of the networks (NBC?).  Constantly debating him apparently showed her the error of her ways...that and seeing the results of the policies she had championed writ large in the Bush "Administration"

            Let the word go forth From this time and place To friend and foe alike That the torch has been passed To a new generation of Americans.

            by TheGryphon on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 05:40:39 PM PST

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            •  Comedy Central... (none)
              "Indecision '92"

              This was when that other guy was doing "The Daily Show"  before Jon Stewart - IIRC.

              Those who fail to learn from history...are invited to submit an application for a position in the Bush administration.

              by Timoteo on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 07:43:36 PM PST

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          •  she figured it out (none)
            Arianna was one of the architects of "compassionate conservatism" with Marvin Olasky, Gingrich and that crowd. Problem was, she was actually serious about it. She really wanted to help poor people. Then she figured out that Marv and Newt weren't exactly on the same page...
          •  asdf (none)
            Her moralizing conservative losing-Senate-candidate husband divorced her and came out of the closet.

            That's got to make you reevaluate the basic honesty of the right-wing position. I mean, if you can lie about who you are, and harbor so much self-hate that you go round condemning others like you, how much of the rest of your beliefs should be taken seriously.

            "What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite." - Bertrand Russell

            by Mad Dog Rackham on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 08:23:21 PM PST

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          •  Arianna (none)
            If memory serves, Arianna herself said that eventually she just saw the disconnect between what the facts were and what the right kept saying.  I don't have a link for that, but I think she said it on Crossfire or something.
      •  Brock's redemption (none)
        I dunno.  I think that people deserve a shot at redemption.  He's now using his powers for good and not for evil, and that's cool with me.
    •  I'd rather win. (4.00)
      But I have zero problem getting dirty, I have zero problems calling them out, and spinning their arguments silly.

      I won't compromise my principals -- I'll still be for equal rights for gays, progressive policies for minorities, women, and those earning very little, a foreign policy based on foresight instead of fairy tale myopia --

      John Kerry won all three legitimate debates. As of now, legitimate debate is no longer one of my core principals.

      Does anyone want to know how to google bomb tom delay?

      by danthrax on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 02:36:33 PM PST

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      •  Another critical value . . . (none)
        . . . is rationale, reasoned debate.  Without it, we are no longer a democratic society and we will be ruled by those with the most power not the best ideas.

        That is also known as fascism.

        Regards.

        •  We'll never have rational reasonable debate (none)
          But we can have debate that reflects everyone. We can give people a legitimate chance to rise up and become powerful and have a voice that speaks for many.

          Instead of the five major media corporations controlling the majority of the information we see on a day to day basis.

          We might not always be able to ensure that the debate is reasonable. But if we empower all the voices, the truth will rise to the top.

          Right now, there are many voices being silenced.

          Does anyone want to know how to google bomb tom delay?

          by danthrax on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 02:44:43 PM PST

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      •  2/11 Changed Everything (none)
             Agree that rational debates with righties are pointless, for the simple reason that they don't debate.  They shout, interrupt, smear, lie, motormouth, and filibuster their way through so-called debates.
             For far too long liberals have approached political debate as though it were a graduate seminar in public policy at the John F. Kennedy School of Government. This last election campaign conclusively demonstrates the truth of the matter: in real politics there is no dialogue, there are only tactics.  I know liberals want to talk about policies--I'd like to talk about them myself--bu they gotta win some elections first!

        With Jose Feliciano you got no complaints.

        by angry blue planet on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 04:09:03 PM PST

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    •  Hold yer horses bucko... (4.00)
      I am happy to embrace reformed wingnuts whenever and wherever. I really appreciate Media Matters and what Brock is doing. We liberals need his kind of pitbull insistent media watching. I think he is walking the walk. I'm behind him.
    •  You mean Brock is their Zell Miller? n/t (none)
    •  asdf (none)
      (Were you lying then or lying now?)

      He was lying then.  He admits it and apologizes for it.  What's the problem?  A guy can't change his mind?

    •  i'd rather just win (none)
      not sure how really matters.
    •  Exactly! (none)
      Brock knows the wingnuts inside and out, and he knows exactly how to go after them.  All in all, Media Matters is shaping up to be a terrific asset.

      Now we need more like it, covering other important areas besides the media...

      •  I would love that debate (none)
        David Brock has to be aware of all the tricks that Republicans use in debate, plus he watches and listens to a lot of O'Reilly.  I think he would wipe the floor with O'Falafel, that's why he'll either have his mic cut or won't appear at all on his show.

        I'm a member of a minority group: the reality-based community.

        by Unstable Isotope on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 05:28:03 PM PST

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      •  The simple proof (none)
        that Brock is right (correct), is that they never rebut his arguments - they attack him personally.  During the O'Reilly/Krugman debate on "Meet the Press," O'Reilly had a shit fit because Krugman merely quoted something from Media Matters.    Brock scares the piss out of them.

        "Don't blame me, I voted for the smart guy."

        by frsbdg on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 09:58:48 PM PST

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    •  I am a big fan of Media Matters and David Brock (4.00)
      I have found Brock and his organization credible and a breath of fresh air to counterbalance a frightening trend in what the non-blogger of the world take for factual media.
      MMFA has been a great resource on Sinclair, and I do believe the only reason they backed down is because of the potential lawsuits orchestrated by Mr. Brock.  
      Why can't we support someone who is doing the reality-based community a service?

      this interests me: www.thepen.us, a way to make our voice heard

      by exhausted by the spin on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 06:39:05 PM PST

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    •  I, for one believe strongly in the concept of ... (none)
      "rehabilitation". And I think it should be a core Democratic belief: that a person's reputation and character can be restored by "therapeutic measures and reeducation". Works for prison reform and works in "real life" too.

      Leave the eternal grudges to the Rethugs, the Swifties, the neo-Victorians, et al.

      "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

      by Glinda on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 07:01:19 PM PST

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      •  Fool me once . . . (none)
        I'm a liberal, of course I agree with rehabilitation.  However, fool me once, and I have a hard time trusting you.  I wish him the best in life, but I would be very cautious with anything he has to say.

        As for win at any cost, why not nuke Pakistan and Afghanistan to get bin Laden like the wingnuts say?  That means does not justify the ends.

        Why not target civilian neighborhoods at the start of the Iraq war to try to get Hussein, even though you know innocents will die?  That is a war crime by Bush that many approve.

        Why not fly planes into buildings to get the US out of the 'caliphate.'

        I did not say don't fight back and fight back hard.  For example, Kerry should have called Bush incompetant early and often and said why - rationally and reasonably.

        Regards

        •  Where in my post did I say (none)
          "win at any cost"? Sorry, I'm not following you.

          But the "I agree with rehabilitation" juxtaposed with "fool me once, and I have a hard time trusting you" just doesn't mesh. The second sentence gives the lie to the first.

          Do you not think it's possible for a person to "change his mind" with better information? You think David Brock was "fooling everyone" by acting as a loyal Republican operative? I think he was seriously commited and loyal to the Republican cause in those days. Reagan was very seductive to the young and Brock was pretty young in the '80s.

          You don't really sound very liberal to me. But perhaps you have been reading too much Christopher Hitchens.

          "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

          by Glinda on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 07:51:43 PM PST

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