Skip to main content

View Diary: The Master's Tools ..... (149 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Where to begin? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ppl can fly, KentuckyKat, teloPariah

    You have Maslow's hierarchy of needs yet again.  As though there was no criticism of the Hyde Amendment, and it was not subject to litigation at the outset or opposition by liberal Democrats.  As though there is a liberal Democrat out there who campaigned on endorsing the concept of homelessness; all but 14 of them voted for DOMA in the senate.  As though the legal circumstances between those convicted of criminal charges were equivalent to those the government denied had any right to due process at all.  

    So I'm not buying in.  The premise is false, the attack on the boycott is clear, the indifference to LGBT and women's reproductive health transparent.

    •  The indifference to all these issues is not mine (8+ / 0-)
      •  Well no but that is the impact... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        teloPariah

        ....of following your suggestion that LGBTs not boycott and not encourage their allies to do so.  

        •  no it isn't....movements have (6+ / 0-)

          disagreements about tactics/strategy all the time...

          there are always many actions that can be taken...

          •  No offense (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ppl can fly, teloPariah

            But I think that the people who have reacted the way that they have to this boycott are completely indifferent, for all practical purposes, to LGBT issues.  They're typically affiliated with OFA, oh they're just fervent Obama supporters, and they have had excuse after excuse for inaction on LGBT issues.  They were never more than nominal allies at best.  They usually have no idea what they're talking about when confronted with data or legal arguments, and their talking points sound like they've been lifted from a Gibbs press release.  

            There's no uniied "movement" here.  

            •  I think our (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ThisIsMyTime, soothsayer99, QES

              "Nominal Allies" are searching for the big tent, as are we GLBT's in this dustup. where I come from we dance with the one what brung us, not some ghoul on the right wing pulling the strings. It's not even a debate if it destroys all WE worked for.If the boycott could work, it would be because we somehow sidestepped inter-party division over the issue of equal marriage. I think the left can be taught, on this issue, and are slowly coming around, unlike the right. We need to be expressing outrage sure, but what about six months from now when we have nothing but sore throats?

              "But then, liberals always were a little fond of mind control, assuming of course that it was put to good use." -DKos troll

              by teloPariah on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 08:28:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  what's all this "they" business? I'm queer and (4+ / 0-)

              I've been in the queer liberation trenches for over 35 years.  

              What you mean, Alex, is the LGBT people who agree with your analysis here.  I assure you, there are also a lot of LGBT/queer folks who have a different take.

              Much of the white, middle-class, mainstream LGBT movement has forsaken issues such as poverty, homelessness, and dismantling institutional racism.  I'm not just saying that; I've sat in meeting after meeting where this is true.  

              I've also sat in meeting after meeting where the voices of low-income queers were systematically disappaered from organizatinal agendas, almost always with the argument, "that's not our issue."  

              Cross-movement, multi-issue organizing results from establishing trustworthy and just relationships that can stand for the long term.

              There's no point in complaining about "them."  The challenge is for all of us to move out of our usual comfort zone and start doing the kind of intersectional, multi-issue organizing and movement building that could produce deeper change for everyone.

              Oh - and I don't support the boycott.  But maybe I'm jjust not the right kind of queer, and I don't really know the issues.  

               

              Teach us to listen to sounds larger than our own heartbeat; that endure longer than our own weeping in the dark. - Lillian Smith

              by RadioGirl on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 09:43:40 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That is why I love you RadioGirl (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RadioGirl, princss6, soothsayer99

                you keep things in perspective. You and sista seeta mirror the same sentiment and have ears so abundant for your point of views. Of course GN1927 too. Thank you for this constructive comment.

                ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

                by ThisIsMyTime on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 11:03:25 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  No not at all (0+ / 0-)

                The financial boycott does not speak for all LGBTs, any more than President Obama speaks for all blacks.  My analysis and opinion is my own.  Your attempt to interpret it otherwise is your own.

                And frankly, as interesting as intersectionality and related concepts are, at the end of the day I'm talking about LGBT issues.  Not atheist and LGBT, Jewish and LGBT, black and LGBT, female and LGBT, Arab and LGBT, etc.  And the dismissive arrogance of the academic study set on intersectionality bleeds through every post on it.  People of color includes South Asians, East Asians, Arabs and Hispanics; blacks do not have a monopoly on this phenomenon.  A Palestinian gay man born into the Islamic faith in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip almost certainly suffers far more than any American LGBT, whatever his skin tone.  In fact, I could easily say that your attitudes are distinctly American-centric; you care about President Obama succeeding domestically, you care about improving domestic race relations, but at the end of the day you will always have blinders.  At the end of the day you're rooted here.  There's this globe that never enters into the discussion.

                So...you want to discuss intersectionality and the dismissive attitude of groups like the HRC.  Fine, discuss away.  Deny yourselves agency.  But you haven't, and probably won't, convince me or others like me.  

                •  you honestly don't know the range of what "we" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  princessglitterboots

                  care about alec --

                  adn you again willfully misrepresent who "we" are what 'we" care about and what in fact true intersectionality actually means...

                  it isn't theoretical or academic --it is the REALITY OF PEOPLE'S LIVES

                  this speaks volumes

                  And frankly, as interesting as intersectionality and related concepts are, at the end of the day I'm talking about LGBT issues.  Not atheist and LGBT, Jewish and LGBT, black and LGBT, female and LGBT, Arab and LGBT, etc.

                  you cannot honestly discuss LGTBT issues without discussing all these dimensions..

                  you are another version of those middle-class white feminists that Lorde was addressing 25+ years ago..

                  •  Actually I can (0+ / 0-)

                    Because there are issues, actual political issues, not simply social issues, that are LGBT, and LGBT only.  Heterosexuals don't have access to them, and don't understand them.  And it's not just white gay men that feel this way, soothsayer.  

                    This is the road the logic you have embraced will take you down; it differs very little, in my opinion, from the extreme cultural relativism rejected by the emerging consensus on human rights.  I view this entire line of thought as an obstacle to that goal.  

                    And that's why Joan's diary pissed people off; she was just more honest, ultimately, about the logic of this movement.  It's ultimately the denial of agency, and the privileging of particularization over universal values.   It's anti-Enlightenment.  

                    •  the perspective presented here is opposite of (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      princessglitterboots

                      what you claim.. It is decidedly about universal human rights and most of all about agnecy to resist -- both individually and collectvely

                      of course there are political rights that are denied to the glbt community -- we could have a comparable discussion about political and social rights denied to many gtoups -- but that inequality is deeply linked to systems that renders many unequal due to the ascribed stauses of race/ethnicty gender age ability and yes class...

                      The nuances will vary globally but oppression generally operates in the same hierachical way with the same tools world--wide -- through exploitation, marginalization, powerlessness, cultural imperialism, and violence.

                      See Iris Marion Young Five Faces of Oppression

                      1. Exploitation. Exploitation has to do with the difference between the wealth that workers create through their labor power and the actual wages that workers get paid. Exploitation is built into the market economy; bosses want to increase profits by lowering wages. The wage and wealth gap between the wealthy owners and managers, on the one hand, and the masses of working people, on the other, is an indication of the degree of exploitation that exists in a society.
                      1. Marginalization. This refers to being left out of the labor market. Those who are unable to get and keep steady employment – because of disabilities, education levels, age, historic discrimination, lack of jobs in neighborhoods, the conditions of poverty, etc. – are experiencing marginalization.
                      1. Powerlessness. In this particular context, ‘powerlessness’ refers to the way in which workers are divided and segmented into jobs with autonomy and authority and jobs with little or no autonomy and authority. Workers in lower-status jobs experience more powerlessness (both on the job and in the sphere of politics) than workers with professional jobs. At the same time, giving some workers a little bit of autonomy on the job can undermine a sense of solidarity that they might otherwise feel towards all workers.
                      1. Cultural Dominance. This refers to the way that one group’s experiences, cultural expressions and history are defined as superior to all other groups’ experiences and histories. It is not necessary for anyone to say: "my group’s culture is superior;" it simply has to be treated as universal –– representing the best in all of humanity. It is considered ‘normal,’ which means that all others are either ‘strange,’ or ‘invisible’ or both.
                      1. Violence. Our nation’s history is full of examples where violence has been used to keep a group ‘in its place.’ State-sanctioned violence has been used to enforce racial segregation, to keep workers from organizing and to break up strikes. Everyday violence also reminds social groups of what happens when they resist oppressive conditions: Black youths straying into a white neighborhood, gay men harrassed and beaten outside of bars and clubs, women in the military being harrassed and sometimes raped -- these are examples of the brutality of everyday life for so many of us. And the ways in which violent crimes are dealt with often reflects social and cultural biases; crime is 'contained' within neigborhoods that law enforcement has written off.

                      Each of these five forms of oppression overlaps with the other. Each is related to and reinforced by the many ideological ‘–isms’ and phobias that exist in our society: racism, classism, homophobia and heterosexism, xenophobia and extreme forms of nationalism, ageism, and more.

                      Most people in society experience one or more of these forms of oppression at some point in their lives. Most, if not all, working people experience exploitation. Racism runs through each of these kinds of oppression, intensifying the experience of exploitation, powerlessness, cultural dominance and everyday violence. Gay men as a group experience cultural dominance and the threat of violence, but they may not necessarily experience other forms of oppression, depending on their class and occupational status. White professional women experience cultural dominance, fear of sexual violence and a degree of powerlessness -- especially if they constantly have to prove themselves worthy of their status. Black professional men also have to constantly prove themselves. Some people experience all five of these kinds of oppression. Their political powerlessness tends to render them invisible.

                      These five ways of looking at oppression help us see that people cannot be divided neatly into the ‘oppressed’ and the ‘oppressor’ columns. We need to build upon people’s different as well as shared experiences of oppression to encourage them to get involved in collective action for social change, and to join with others, whose experiences with oppression may look somewhat different from their own.

                      A structural analysis of oppression that looks at the intersections of race, gender and class allows us to unmask the ways in which these social and economic divisions reflect and reinforce existing power relations in society. It highlights the need for organizational and institutional allies who recognize their shared responsibility to fight oppression in all its forms.

                      this is the intersectionality of oppression -- and its' reality and effects are empirically measureable

                      there is also an intersection of identity -- people don't just have a sexual orientation - they have racial/ethnic identities, ages socio-econmic statuses and abilities...

                      Failure to account for the complexity of both people's lives and the common threads in oppressive systems is to deny reality...

                      It is also to isolate divide and render ineffective the real work of change

                      These are the Master's Tools

                      •  But ultimately you demand loyalty to President... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...Obama not simply because of his political obligations, but also on the basis of his race.  It's not as simple as race, of course; Justice Thomas certainly doesn't enjoy this New Left loyalty.  But when the needs of others are considered alongside the needs of the first black and center left president, all other obligations are devalued.  And so criticism is deemd to come from a "very ugly place" and "no other president" is subjected to the demands of something like the boycott.  When someone who isn't white objects, you falter and cannot provide a rationale for their objection without attributing something akin to false consciousness to them.  They, too, are denied agency.  

                        The problem is also that you demand one way communication and commitment.  The boycott is "divisive," but President Obama's failure to do one simple act must be excused at all costs.  Incrementalism is praised and the legitimate grievances and demands of the Left are dismissed.

                        And you do this by dismissing gay rights.  Sorry, you do.  You still cannot explain away your comparison of DOMA to homelessness, which is not at all alike in kind, in light of your comparison of Stupak to Hyde and  Guantanamo to Angola3.  When the differences are pointed out, you simply don't respond to the criticism.  And on it goes.  

      •  i think you can already tell (10+ / 0-)

        who's going to throw their hat into the "I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA" ring, so don't waste time on people who will rewrite history and facts to fit their narrative.

        thanks for this diary.

        A ugly person who goes after a pretty person gets nothing but trouble. But a pretty person who goes after a ugly person gets at least cab fare.

        by princessglitterboots on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 06:10:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I am so sorry (12+ / 0-)

      that a call to solidarity is seen by you as a continuation of the factions.

      There are many of us who believe and can unite around the words soothsayer quoted from MLK

      Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...

      Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by NLinStPaul on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 06:08:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You uprated JoanMar's diary.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        teloPariah

        ....which gives me some insight into your true feelings.  So that's really all I have to say: enablers of anti-gay bigotry don't get to lecture me or anyone else about "injustice."

        •  I tipped her tip jar, (12+ / 0-)

          did not recommend the diary, criticized the things I didn't agree with, and asked her to take a break.

          If you keep working so hard to find enemies everywhere, I'm certain you will be successful. But the funny thing is - you know nothing about me personally. And if you did, you'd understand how ridiculous your judgements are.

          Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by NLinStPaul on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 06:18:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yup that much is true (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            teloPariah

            But the funny thing is - you know nothing about me personally.

            I know that you uprated a hate screed.  Your criticism was at best muted.  And that's being generous.  

            Anyway, carry on in your solidarity.  

            •  Comments are inappropriate for this diary (9+ / 0-)

              This diary is such a loving expression of solidarity and is such a gentle chastisement of recent contentious tactics, that it's a shame to see a comments section which does not reflect that good will.

              I think that you've completely misread this diary, Alec.  Fighting with people here is a useless endeavor.

              Anyway, onto the substance of the actual diary:
              the concept of not trying to use the master's tools to dismantle the master's house is why I loved Land of Enchantment's diary about "off the reservation" and I do take seriously the argument that using "drama queen" in certain specific contexts can be dangerous, although many people disagree with that in good faith.  Language is one way in which regressivism can insinuate itself in even the most progressive endeavors.

              I've got to read more of and about Audre Love.

              If you're walking down the right path and you're willing to keep walking, eventually you'll make progress.--Nobel Peace Prize Recipient President Obama

              by GN1927 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 06:29:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sister Outsider is a great collection of her (7+ / 0-)

                essays..The Transformation of Silence into Language and Action is one of my all time faves

              •  Funny how the word boycott... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                teloPariah

                ....appears nowhere in this diary.  It should at least be a tag; clearly this is part of that campaign.  

                •  The only thing clear (6+ / 0-)

                  is that you're trolling this comments section, although I don't consider it hideworthy in the least.

                  This is a call for solidarity and you're being stubbornly divisive.

                  I kinda don't want to see you here as I hold you responsible for f-ing with joanmar, but if you're here, you should at least try to participate in a manner commensurate with the tone of this diary, which isn't hateful and isn't combative.

                  If you're walking down the right path and you're willing to keep walking, eventually you'll make progress.--Nobel Peace Prize Recipient President Obama

                  by GN1927 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 06:39:16 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Every boycott diary... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    teloPariah

                    ...is divisive.  Joan's diary was the most divisive of them all, which was no doubt why it was deleted mere hours after it appeared, despite Meteor Blades' admonition that diaries with more than 100 comments shouldn't be deleted.  

                    Every diary on this subject is written to provoke.  And I've addressed the substance of soothsayer's comparisons and I've found them wanting.  In the spirit of this diary, shouldn't we take note of the differences?

                    No trial, no due process versus trial and due process

                    Democrats not campaigning on anti-homeless people platforms and legislation versus Democrats campaigning with anti-gay bigots and on anti-gay legislation.

                    Restrictions on federally funded abortion versus elimination of all abortion coverage in the private market via Stupak's amendment to Obama's proposed exchange.

                    But this is just a mojo fest for the anti-boycott crowd.  There was never any interest in discussing these things.  

                    •  Actually, you're the one (8+ / 0-)

                      being divisive and provocative.  And you have misread this diary, which is one of inclusion.  You're inadvertantly making the diarist's point, as well.  You're working in an either/or; my issue/your issue dominance/power framework, when there should be creativity and cooperation.

                      If you'd like to join Avarosis and Hamsher in their choice to behave oppositionally to the Obama administration, as Markos has done, no one can stop you.  But as should have been clear to the participants of this strategy from the beginning, this is a risky maneuver which risks alienation those who would otherwise be working alongside you; if that working alongside you is insufficient (i.e., refusal to condemn incremental progress), then so be it.  I don't know what more to say.

                      If you're walking down the right path and you're willing to keep walking, eventually you'll make progress.--Nobel Peace Prize Recipient President Obama

                      by GN1927 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 06:59:13 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes you consider difference of opinion... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        teloPariah

                        ...divisive and provocative.  As do many of the boycott supporters.  But it isn't, it is simply a difference of opinion.  

                        And really GN1927, you can stop with the veiled threats of risking "alienation."  That presupposes a prior commitment, the evidence for which is lacking.  Apart from words, and we all know that politicians, like lawyers, are wordsmiths; it doesn't reveal much about their actual beliefs.  

                        I don't think anyone has condemned incremental progress; I think they've deemed it insufficient.  And as I explained Sunday, "incremental progress" is in the eye of the beholder.  I consider the repeal of DADT incremental progress, for example; as is the passage of ENDA.  

                        Anyway....you ignored my criticism of the comparisons entirely.  Which is fitting.

                        •  No, (4+ / 0-)

                          I consider the choice to come into a diary which is discussing the necessity of sticking together with a "my way or the highway" set of comments to be divisive and provocative.

                          You could have easily made the argument that yes, there does seem to be a prioritization of issues which are more important to people with some degree of empowerment, but the diarist is wrong in linking causation, and here's why, etc.

                          Instead, you chose to engage multiple people here in a combative fashion.  And the response has been extremely mild and gentle, in comparison with how I've seen some other people treated on this site.

                          I don't think anyone has condemned incremental progress

                          LOL.

                          If you're walking down the right path and you're willing to keep walking, eventually you'll make progress.--Nobel Peace Prize Recipient President Obama

                          by GN1927 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 07:14:19 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  this is all a derailing tactic anyway (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            GN1927, JoanMar, soothsayer99, QES

                            alec doesn't care a thing about this diary, what is about and who it may be speaking to.

                            he's already bragged about his "list" and i guess this is just another way to get a certain segment of daily kos to go away, or to punish them for...various reasons.

                            A ugly person who goes after a pretty person gets nothing but trouble. But a pretty person who goes after a ugly person gets at least cab fare.

                            by princessglitterboots on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 07:19:28 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Exactly (5+ / 0-)

                            This is a congregation of his enemy's list and so he's here to punish us, lol.

                            Whatever.

                            This is just such a lovely and inspiring diary that even behavior like that can't ruin the mood.

                            Did you see Urizen's comment below?

                            Seems to me the primary Master's Tools (2+ / 0-)
                            are demonization and alienation: the simplistic logic that spawned "if you're not with us you're with the terrorists" and all that.

                            The master's tools are about consolidating power, creating leverage for specific interests.

                            This is the kind of analysis which used to be all over the site.

                            If you're walking down the right path and you're willing to keep walking, eventually you'll make progress.--Nobel Peace Prize Recipient President Obama

                            by GN1927 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 07:24:15 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You continue to insinuate racism... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...without any basis at all, apart from criticism of the administration or disagreements on this blog.  Yet you are the one who happily removed a hidden comment by a well known anti-Arab poster from the hidden comments because he agreed with you on the boycott.  What reasonable inference should I make from that? Even GN1927 pulled the uprate of that one after it was pointed out.

                            You really are a piece of work.  Your baseless accusations are just that.

                          •  Get this baggage out of here already (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soothsayer99, QES

                            Enough, Alec.  Either contribute to what is shaping up to be an excellent comments section or just leave.

                            If you're walking down the right path and you're willing to keep walking, eventually you'll make progress.--Nobel Peace Prize Recipient President Obama

                            by GN1927 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 07:30:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No (0+ / 0-)

                            If PGB is going to accuse me of racism (and you apparently agree with it), I'm not going to just let it go unanswered.  

                          •  And so instead (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            princessglitterboots, QES

                            of contributing your insights and expertise, you'd rather troll.

                            Instead of contributing your recommendations of works by successful organizers and thinkers, you'd rather run around here slapping at your enemy's list.

                            Either contribute or leave at this point.  This diary was not set up in a hateful or combative fashion, which is reflected in the comments section.  Either add your own creativity or leave others to enjoy this.

                            If you're walking down the right path and you're willing to keep walking, eventually you'll make progress.--Nobel Peace Prize Recipient President Obama

                            by GN1927 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 07:35:47 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  this is NOT a boycott diary -- this speaks to (4+ / 0-)

                      many divisions that long preceed that..

                    •  Actually I don't advocate a boycott (4+ / 0-)

                      and i'm GLBT. I am nowhere near as politically astute as you Alec, and i want you to keep writing your comments. Havong said that, if someone brings up a point of contention, why don't you advocate instead of letting yourself get frustrated. This is a blog, not the oval office. You can get your facts wrong and still be educated, that's why I continue here. I threw my hands up at making enemies. I have enough of those, 'cause I'm mean.

                      "But then, liberals always were a little fond of mind control, assuming of course that it was put to good use." -DKos troll

                      by teloPariah on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 08:38:03 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  NL - those of us who knows you, believe in you!nt (6+ / 0-)

            ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

            by ThisIsMyTime on Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 02:36:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site