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View Diary: Is This What Democrats Stand For? (78 comments)

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  •  Title: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maimonides, sherijr

    Is This What Democrats Stand For?

    Then too, your subject is the striking similarities between two Democratic Presidents who inherited wars, one of whom allowed "his" war to continue through his nearly two full terms, and the other who took office 10 months ago and who (whatever else his detractors may say) has been actively looking for ways out.

    My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
    --Carl Schurz, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872

    by leftist vegetarian patriot on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 01:39:35 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Rubs ya the wrong way? (0+ / 0-)

      I don't doubt ya, but the title is a question, ya dig?

      A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

      by Hound Dog on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 01:45:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Should the President commit more troops in some (0+ / 0-)

        ill-advised all out offensive, or should he by inaction allow the existing troops to fight and die on the same ground they're now on, then I'd say your comparison is pretty apt, actually.

        But you seem to me to be making this comparison before it is clear that it is, in fact, apt. Nothing said on this blog is going to affect whatever the decision is, because it's already been made and we all know it. The timeline is far too short for there anyone to believe that some new policy was really intended to be created between the time he rejected the plans put before him by the generals and the time he will announce that policy.

        We're just waiting for what someone evidently believes will be a politically opportune time for this policy announcement to be rolled out. When it is, I'm prepared to be very judgemental. Until then, it seems premature.

        My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
        --Carl Schurz, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872

        by leftist vegetarian patriot on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 01:53:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Since WHEN (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thethinveil

          is it "premature" for a citizen to tell the gubmint what he thinks?

          A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

          by Hound Dog on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 02:36:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  But you're not doing that (0+ / 0-)

            You are telling us what you think, and attempting to convince us to think the same, so that we can tell the gubmint what we all think together. Moreover, what you think is apparently predicated on an assumption as to what the President will do that we as yet do not actually have evidence for.

            Once the actual policy is announced, if it's objectionable I think your suggestion as to action is a great idea. But doing this

            Send the mail, make the phone calls, and pound on their doors and desks in person for re-deployment. You can go to their local offices with an appointment, or without one. They are public places, and you pay for them. (Picture that in your head - going to the office, then knocking on the door.)

            Then do it again, and again, and....

            to Congresspeople who have zero ability to turn the policy 180 degrees (assuming it needs to be) when it is this close to its public revelation won't do anything but waste our time.

            My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
            --Carl Schurz, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872

            by leftist vegetarian patriot on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 02:50:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  not true (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jimreyn, thethinveil

              Congresspeople who have zero ability to turn the policy 180 degrees

              A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

              by Hound Dog on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 03:19:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I have no need to wait! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              thethinveil

              Moreover, what you think is apparently predicated on an assumption as to what the President will do that we as yet do not actually have evidence for.

              A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

              by Hound Dog on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 03:21:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You think that continuous scattershot protest (0+ / 0-)

                against something that might or might not be planned a week or two before the something is even announced is more effective than a storm of protest when it is announced (assuming said storm is even justified by events). You have every right to think so and to act on your convictions.

                I do not.

                My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
                --Carl Schurz, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872

                by leftist vegetarian patriot on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 03:27:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sounds bassackwards to me. nt (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  thethinveil

                  A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

                  by Hound Dog on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 03:46:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Protest over the long term is effective (0+ / 0-)

                    but you are (if I'm understanding you correctly) attempting to create greater protest immediately (in political terms) before a decision is announced and without any suggested alternative but redeployment (pulling out the troops and abandoning Afghanistan to whatever came next).

                    If we do so and the President were actually to follow that strategy (whether it was or was not the strategy he'd meant to announce), his Presidency and would be effectively over at that time, because he'd "caved to the hard left fringe." You may not believe me, but I'm okay with killing his political career and influence after (if) he actually makes a decision that looks as if it would prove disastrous, but I'd like to wait until that time, not jump the gun. I am positive that the Republican who would succeed him in this political climate would make far worse choices.

                    Nothing President Obama suggests is going to please the right, short of actions I trust he is too moral to take. I honestly believe him when he says that he intends to finish up our involvement in Afghanistan before 2012, in part because I believe that if he doesn't he won't be re-elected and I think he knows that, and in part because I don't think he actually wants us at war. I also don't believe any sane person could think we could "win" an offensive war in Afghanistan inside three years with any number of troops the US could conceivably send in. I do not think he is insane.

                    So that's why I'm waiting.

                    My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
                    --Carl Schurz, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872

                    by leftist vegetarian patriot on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 04:10:12 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Whenever the spirit (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      thethinveil

                      moves people to get off their fatty acids and push back is, well, up to them, ain't it?

                      For me, it is not so convoluted.

                      A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

                      by Hound Dog on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 04:49:44 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  winning by staying silent is (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hound Dog

                        tactic that does not work for me either. Why should we not be proud of what we stand for when it is popular with the American public, and when it is what many of us have been arguing for all this time. I think we should stop considering ourselves as lepers and begin making the case to the American public because we did the same with the Iraq war we can do it with the Afghanistan War.

                        "What is the robbing of a Bank compared to the FOUNDING of a Bank?" Bertolt Brecht

                        by thethinveil on Thu Nov 19, 2009 at 03:24:53 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  His voting record (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hound Dog

      As the Jr Senator from IL doesn't seem to indicate he was looking for an exit.  Nor did his campaign rhetoric.  And his track record vs stump speeches on Iraq isn't real consistent, either.  Had he kept that promise, there would be far fewer soldiers in Iraq than the 135,000 there now

      The first casualty of war is the truth

      by Army Mom 2004 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 10:17:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The footdragging on re-deploying from Iraq (0+ / 0-)

        HAS been quite impressive!

        I believe 0% of what he or anyone says about Iraq withdrawal, and 100% of what happens.....and damned little has happened.  

        Last figures I heard were bout 120,000 still in Iraq.

        Any number of excuses can come up for dragging this re-deployment out for a very long time.

        A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

        by Hound Dog on Wed Nov 18, 2009 at 10:51:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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