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  •  "Murder by spreadsheet" sounds like nyceve (0+ / 0-)

    who I know and have worked with (I was on her panel at YK in Chicago) and has nothing whatever to do with these guidelines, which are evidence based, not insurance based. Just another error you've made.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 06:15:16 AM PST

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    •  Evidence-based? (0+ / 0-)

      Sounds like another step towards science.

      I pretty much quit commenting in nyceve's diaries a long time ago, although I still read them and rec them. If you go back far enough in the comments you will see I had a fundamental disagreement with her. At least that ended amicably, due to her grace. We agreed to disagree.

      Have you ever written programs for spreadsheets, or even used them with a full understanding of the underlying mathematics? Just curious.

      How did the stones vote this time? They voted for hardness and few words. And the men? They voted against themselves and for fire which they could not control.

      by lightfoot on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 06:32:57 AM PST

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      •  the answer is yes (0+ / 0-)

        I'm an MIT graduate and I am very familiar with the terms and the process, though I am a clinician and not a stats expert and I don't do programming these days.

        BTW, I've had my very amicable disagreements with nyceve as well ;-) but why did you pick that term (murder by spreadsheet) to inject?

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 06:42:17 AM PST

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        •  Insurance companies use them to compute (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DemFromCT

          statistics. More probably they use "S" or something similar. You are probably right, I picked up the phrase from nyceve.

          I am sorry that you consider my posts as making me a "jerk". I have stated a logical argument. I only ask for you to consider that much of the field of elementary statistics are based on the fundamental theorem known as Law of Large Numbers. Please consider the implications of this when it is applied to individuals.

          How did the stones vote this time? They voted for hardness and few words. And the men? They voted against themselves and for fire which they could not control.

          by lightfoot on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 06:53:03 AM PST

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          •  that's an important contribution and thank you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lightfoot

            please understand in return:

            1. reasonable people can disagree about what the current (insufficient) data says and means
            1. this is science driven, not insurance driven
            1. because someone draws a conclusion from the data that you may disagree with or find wanting doesn't mean they are "trying to kill women" or that they don't care about them. I can't begin to tell you how offensive that is.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 06:58:04 AM PST

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            •  Granted. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DemFromCT

              It is my opinion that in the past the medical needs of women have been subsumed by the medical needs of men to some degree. I believe it is the case that this approach did not completely change until the 1990's, so this change occurred rather later in my life. If I overreact on the side of the interests of women, then it is due to concern for my wife and younger sister, and in the memory of my sister who passed on.

              Based on your point 2 I am sorry if I came across too harshly.

              How did the stones vote this time? They voted for hardness and few words. And the men? They voted against themselves and for fire which they could not control.

              by lightfoot on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:16:27 AM PST

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              •  granted for the past, without argument (0+ / 0-)

                but this isn't the past. the data need to be strong enough to stand on its own. When we don't know we need to say we don't know. That is exactly what the guidelines say.

                it's disruptive, but it would be dishonest to pretend we KNOW that screening is proven when the opposite is true.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:39:03 AM PST

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                •  There is a old saying among mathematicians, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DemFromCT

                  and that is "nothing can be proven with statistics". Statistics are only used when the data is incomplete, and the nature of the underlying population is unknowable. We use statistics only to make estimations to fill in our ignorance.  Other applications of statistics are abusive.

                  Statistics are always overridden by formal logic and/or set theory wherever possible. In those fields we can design irrefutable proofs of our conclusions, whereas a statistical hypothesis test can yield only probabilities within some confidence interval.

                  This brings me back to my original point. I do not mean to be insulting to you personally, but this is a flaw in the nature of a great deal of medical research. It is why the lay public often hears so much conflicting information, and it is not scientific.

                  I always feel bad when I leave a discussion with someone feeling insulted, it is my soft spot, but ultimately I must remain true to myself and what I know.

                  It is clear to me we cannot agree on this topic, so have a final say if you wish but I am going to let it be.

                  Peace, DemFromCT.

                  How did the stones vote this time? They voted for hardness and few words. And the men? They voted against themselves and for fire which they could not control.

                  by lightfoot on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:30:01 AM PST

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                  •  good health to your family (0+ / 0-)

                    and understand that when docs get it wrong ("it" is sometimes the diagnosis, sometimes the math) it's usually from trying to do the right thing.

                    Peace, lightfoot.

                    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                    by Greg Dworkin on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 11:36:42 AM PST

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