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View Diary: CafePress out Hoffmans Hoffman - Reversing Reversal on Psalm 109:8 (304 comments)

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  •  I don't get it. (12+ / 0-)

    I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I was actually moved by this announcement, reflecting as it does a healthy respect for freedom of speech and a democratic process of decision-making.  Perhaps there's something I don't get, but this sure looks like the kind of sore winning that gives progressives a bad name.  I'm glad they weren't ready to roll over and cave at the first sign of trouble.  Think of the consideration you would like if you wanted to market a tee shirt calling Cheney a war criminal.

    There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

    by geomoo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 11:29:04 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  big difference between calling someone a war (17+ / 0-)

      criminal and calling for their assasination.  Huge difference, in fact.  

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 11:41:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You already won that argument. I get it. (6+ / 0-)

        My point is that you should be required to make a very strong case that goes beyond one partisan group being offended.  As far as I can tell, that's exactly what CafePress did.  And because you argued powerfully enough that there IS a big difference, you won.  Hooray for us.

        There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

        by geomoo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 11:50:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What do you think this is? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dunvegan, mikeconwell

          Perry Mason?  They didn't reverse themselves because our argument won the day.  They caved because they'd lose money.  Full stop.

          Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

          by fou on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 12:39:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you cynically assume the world works that way, (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            susanw, adrianrf, emidesu

            then what is your basis of complaint?  Are you, in effect, screaming at the weather?  Or do you ascribe to "your" side the virtues of integrity and idealism while defining the "other" side as inherently greed-driven?  Pretty self-serving and in the end, just another recipe for a world that sucks, unless of course you entertain the unrealistic notion that one day everyone will be like you.

            The press release is, to me, eloquent.  On what grounds can you dismiss their fine words while expecting people to take your own expressions of decency at face value?

            In short, it seems your attitude serves only to lock people into positions which will provide you the ongoing comfort of a position of superiority.  I don't mean to be insulting, truly I don't, but I have to call it the way I see it.

            If people have information that supports these contentions of an unjustified level of profit-seeking over responsible citizenship, I'm happy to hear it.

            There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

            by geomoo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 12:52:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  ... (0+ / 0-)

              Or do you ascribe to "your" side the virtues of integrity and idealism while defining the "other" side as inherently greed-driven?

              Yes.

              Pretty self-serving and in the end, just another recipe for a world that sucks, unless of course you entertain the unrealistic notion that one day everyone will be like you.

              Call it what you will.  I'm glad that this community of decent people mobilized to compel them to reverse their decision.

              On what grounds can you dismiss their fine words while expecting people to take your own expressions of decency at face value?

              I'm betting you already know how I'd answer, so ... I'm going to grab some lunch.  Good day.

              Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

              by fou on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 01:01:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Because I said so"? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                susanw, adrianrf

                I'm glad that this community of decent people mobilized to compel them to reverse their decision.

                Well then, we have no argument.  My point is that instead of sounding glad, people were sounding bitter and angry.

                I hope you enjoyed your lunch.  Peace.

                There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

                by geomoo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 01:07:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Side of Good/Side of Evil (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mikeconwell

              Or do you ascribe to "your" side the virtues of integrity and idealism while defining the "other" side as inherently greed-driven?

               

              Have you LOOKED at the other side???

              I guess you could add "fear-driven" and "hate-driven", but other than that, YES, they have no integrity nor idealism.

              •  It's not so clear-cut to me (4+ / 0-)

                in that I see what looks like hatred of THEM in this very thread.  I see plenty of spiteful, hateful behavior on this site every day.  It looks a lot more like a mirror than people want to accept.  How do you think someone on the right feels about themselves and their cause when they have righteously beat back an attack on their values?  I contend that for many of them, the feelings are precisely the same:  smug, self-satisfied, and full or reasons that they are right and the other side is wrong.

                In short, I don't believe "axis of evil" thinking is likely to bring change to our country.  There is a difference between being mistaken and being evil.  There is a difference between being mislead and being evil.  There is a difference between being unable to understand the forces that are driving you into poverty and other miseries and being evil.

                There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

                by geomoo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 03:22:33 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with you but that doesn't mean (0+ / 0-)

                  there really isn't an axis of evil with some Americans on it. There are.

                  Any person who can pray that two innocent children be orphaned and left destitute just because they don't like the children's father is evil. Period.

                  •  Sure, but the issue under discussion is that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mikeconwell

                    CafePress took two days to decide to drop a tee shirt.  I don't detect any signs of evil in that.

                    There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

                    by geomoo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 06:12:30 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I'll question this absolutist thinking further (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mikeconwell

                    I have seen some small amount of wishes on this very website for Cheney or Rumseld or Bush or sometimes even lesser figures to suffer some horrible fate or other.  Did those sentiments strike you as evil?  I assume that, even if you disagreed with the tactic, you didn't see the people expressing such as completely evil.  I submit that the difference does not lie in some objective definition of what is evil, but rather in the fact that you were more in agreement with them.  To be clear, I'm not equating the sides.  I agree that such a bumper sticker feels evil to me, but I feel that many people participating in such destructive behavior are better defined as suckers or pathetic patsies than as evil.  This thinking in no way mitigates the very real danger they represent.

                    It feels to me that the self-righteousness in this thread has a lot more to do with feeling right in some ultimate way than with concern over good and evil.  It is dangerous for anyone, left or right, to simply assume that they are somehow aligned with ultimate good.  If you want to be on a "side" that claims to be able to name evil, then I suggest that requires a level of self-examination that I don't typically see here.  If you want to define one aspect of evil, to take an example, as praying for harm to befall others, then part of fighting this evil is to seek it out wherever it may be found, rather than just self-righteously point it out in people who are disliked for other reasons.

                    The huffing and puffing begins over an internet vendor who failed to respond fast enough or thoroughly enough to the demands of one highly partisan faction--a faction that, ironically enough, likes to consider itself a champion of free speech and open honest discourse.  When I gently raise the point, in honest question form ("I don't get it"  "Maybe I'm missing something."), instead of having any discussion whatsoever as to why the vendor is still hated and should be boycotted, or what evidence the complainers have that the vendor made a cynical decision based purely on dollars, I find myself in a discussion about ultimate good and evil.  Forgive me, but this feels a lot more about people who want to be right, and absolutely at all times, than a serious discussion of good and evil.

                    There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

                    by geomoo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 06:37:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The US has suffered 28 years (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mikeconwell

                      of blatant corporatism. As a result, we are a bankrupt third world nation with 10k + nukes and the corporatists are still in charge.

                      Pardon us if we're a little touchy here, and please take your purity critique elsewhere.

                      Thanks and have a great day !

                      •  Love it or leave it? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mikeconwell

                        Just more irony.  You're the one looking for purity--I'm seeking dialog.

                        This site isn't a support group for victims.  The takeaway lesson from the opening comments?  Woebetide the company who responds to pressure from the left.

                        I don't give a shit what you've suffered. Get down off that high horse and get to work.

                        There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

                        by geomoo on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:30:25 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  nah (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          mikeconwell

                          Love it or leave it?

                          Never said it.

                          Didn't say I. Was speaking about the country.

                          I don't give a shit what you've suffered. Get down off that high horse and get to work.

                          Presumptuous. You have no idea.

                          You're more concerned with your mewling nitpicky purity than with the arc of the diary.

                          Have a nice day.

                          See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks.

                          ~ Sol Invictus

                          •  "please take your purity critique elsewhere." (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ozsea1

                            That's the same sentiment.  Deny that if you must.

                            I do apologize for that other quote.  I was pretty pissed there, and it doesn't represent my true feelings.

                            I am making a serious point here, and I'm not just mewling or any of the other insulting things you may want to say to try to get me to go away.  I see the country as dangerously polarized.  I see unyielding, self-righteous demonizing of the other on both sides.  Believe it or not, I'm solidly on your side.  But I don't see how bitterly complaining over victory is going to help much.

                            What is most striking to me in this thread is the degree to which so many people have proved my point by demonstrating an utter unwillingness to brook even gentle questioning of their behavior or attitude.  I have turned up the rhetoric as I've met with a stone wall of resistance to even a discussion of the notion that perhaps it's not the wisest thing to condemn a company within hours of getting them to change their policy.  I'm willing to be wrong.  I'm willing to be convinced.  As this interaction has gone forward, I've been more convinced than ever that I'm making an important point here.

                            Very ironic that you would call me a purity troll.  Please try to see that.

                            There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

                            by geomoo on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:27:21 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  hmmm (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            geomoo

                            I don't see where I used the "t" word, but I can see where it was implied.

                            I got a bit on tilt. Thanks for taking the time for a thoughtful reply. Recced.

                            "And the banks - hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis that many of the banks created - are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place."

                            ~ Senator Dick Durbin

                          •  Thank you for making it possible (0+ / 0-)

                            for me to leave this thread with something other than just bad feelings.  Much appreciated.

                            PS The phrase "purity troll" just rolled off my tongue.  I am aware that you didn't use the word.  Just imagine my reaction if you had.  :)

                            There are people who want to fight to bring about peace--the most deluded souls of all. - Henry Miller

                            by geomoo on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 11:18:43 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

        •  They should be able to look at it (0+ / 0-)

          and figure out for themselves that it is out of bounds. They shouldn't need a survey to tell them that. It's inherently offensive and wrong; it's not just offensive because the percentage of their customers who don't want the President assassinated is higher than the percentage who do want him assassinated.

          Relax - the adults are in charge now.

          by NWTerriD on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:19:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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