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View Diary: Conventional wisdom, wrong as usual (189 comments)

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  •  To motivate the Democratic base (13+ / 0-)

    There's nothing like passing watered down health care reform, escalating the war in Afghanistan, and the highest unemployment since the Great Depression to motivate the Democratic base.

    •  Exactly. What a joke. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nippersdad, cybrestrike, m00finsan

      It is so laughable, it is absurd.

      Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

      by maxschell on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:15:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Below I argue for tabling everything. (0+ / 0-)

      Afghan: Here's a novel idea - start drawing down troops and see if THAT changes anything.  Seems to me we had a low level of troops there for a long time and hey, guess what -- no terrorist attacks.  Keep a small contingent there to keep an eye on things.

      Iraq:  Remind me why the fuck are we still there?

      HCR: Obama has already lost the base on this.  He should table it until 2011.  That would be true 3D chess.

      THEN, here's my suggestion for what he should be doing with all his free time:

      Jobs, jobs, jobs.  

      I would prefer he focuses on green jobs and combines the job initiative with new energy initiatives, but that's just me.

      Ultimately, it's the economy stupid, and Obama better be devoting the utmost attention to jobs in 2010 or he's fucked (and so are we).

      Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

      by maxschell on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:20:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There's nothing as (7+ / 0-)

      impressive as passing health care reform at all (80 years of failure so far).  We have no idea where Afghanistan is heading, but we do know we're on the way out of Iraq.  And I guess someone forgot that the Bush and other Republican administrations are the architects of Great Depression Redux?

      Gosh, in 10 months we still aren't completely turned around.  Who could have imagined that these issues would be tough to deal with and slow to fix?  Adults?

      Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

      by I love OCD on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:23:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah that would be real impressive: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        island in alabama

        Healthcare "reform" is likely to leave us much worse off just like ERISA "reform" did 30+ years ago.  That would be impressive for the healthcare insurance industry, but not for working American families.

        I have a good idea where Afghanistan is heading, and the trajectory shows no signs of being any different from the defeats suffered by the Brits and the Soviet Union, or the Romans before them.  The historical evidence is clear on this point.  We have neither the stomach nor the treasure for this war.  We will lose it if we continue it.

        Remind me again, how many troops are still in Iraq?  

        I am not forgetting that Bush architected both the wars and the Great Depression II, but it seems to me if you understand that, and you really would like things to CHANGE, you don't leave the same people in charge who created the mess, e.g. Gates, Bernanke, etc...

        Oh and btw, it's now 11 months and counting.

        Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

        by maxschell on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:39:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ooooooh, 11 whole months. (0+ / 0-)

          No wonder everyone is so upset!

          How about a comparison to Medicare, and Social Security, and the VA system, none of which got through Congress in pure form, and have needed to be tweaked over the years?

          You admit, briefly, that the President inherited two mangled and badly mismanaged wars.  Have you considered the amount of time and effort involved in removing soldiers and all their various equipment from across the world?  Do you have the vaguest idea about how to keep the last people safe in a hostile environment?  Do you have inside knowledge about what the President is looking to achieve in Afghanistan/Pakistan?  Do you have any idea how dangerous that part of the world is right now?  We shouldn't be there, but we are.  Blaming Obama for something he didn't start is not only silly, it borders on idiocy - or a fondness for RW talking points and undermining a Democratic president.  Which is it?

          Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

          by I love OCD on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:39:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How 'bout that comparison? (0+ / 0-)

            I love it.  Yes, let's compare what is currently being considered in Congress vs. Medicare, Social Security and the VA.  

            I welcome that comparison.  Once a rational person makes that comparison, there is little doubt what he or she would choose.

            I'll give you a hint about the key difference: there ain't no private insurance involved AT ALL in either Medicare, Social Security or the VA!  

            You brought it up lover.

            In fact, just imagine if George W. Bush had his way and had turned Social Security private.  We would all be totally fucked right now.  So let's make that comparison.  There is little doubt that it will not be favorable to "your" side.

            Yo and btw, I know a lot about military logistics.  And it does not take 11 months to get people out of dodge.  

            Maybe if "that part of the world" is so fucking dangerous, we should get the fuck out?

            Maybe I have no clue what the President is "trying to achieve" in "that part of the world" but I know that I'm sick of paying my hard-earned tax dollars to military contractors to kill innocent people there?

            Maybe I've read some history of the region and know that there is little use in occupying it, like we are now?

            Maybe I think there are better ways of fighting "terror".

            Finally, maybe you should get your facts straight -- 11 months is 11 months, not 10.

            Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

            by maxschell on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 08:47:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And Progressives of their eras (0+ / 0-)

              nevertheless spouted all the same objections when those pieces of legislation were watered down before passage.

              Maybe we shouldn't have gotten in to those areas?  Maybe we should have apprehended bin Ladin when he was close at hand and left immediately?  Maybe you don't know enough about military strategy to extrapolate all the variables on getting all our soldiers out of Iraq.  If you do, why aren't you in the Pentagon as an advisor?

              As for history, I'm aware that all potential occupying forces have been unable to take Afghanistan - isn't it back to Alexander the Great?  I mean if Genghis Khan was stopped cold that's a pretty impressive record on their part.  I suspect President Obama has read as much history as you have.  I don't think he's planning to occupy Afghanistan and try to turn it into a homogeneous nation.

              There's no way to "fight" terror.  That's why it's terrifying.  It's been a silly idea from day one, and typical of the US to think our firepower and military will be of any use at all.  This is where diplomacy and a really good intelligence network take over.  I think Obama is also aware of this and that's why he's working so hard to improve America's standing all over the world.  I'm not a CIA/NSA insider so I don't know what's happening with intelligence gathering, but I suspect that's no longer being neglected or farmed out to Blackwater and KBR types.

              I'm tired of paying tax dollars when churches and major corporations and the wealthy are weaseling out of their responsibilities.  I've been tired of it for decades.  What's the answer?  Obama has made it clear that he's got people looking into the whole defense contractor mess.  I think it irritates him as much as it irritates us and I expect he'll do a lot to clean yet another mess up as soon as possible.  

              Unless Progressives neutralize him first.    

              Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

              by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 07:45:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Really, "progressives" spouted same objections? (0+ / 0-)

                Sorry, as I explained in my comment, they didn't have to spout the "same" objections because those programs were managed by the Federal government, NOT private insurance companies.  

                Where progressive should have stood up is over the ERISA legislation, which is one of the primary reasons there has been such a massive redistribution of wealth in this country.  Sadly because of the Nixon debacle, they were focusing on other matters.

                On a positive note, it sounds like we are in agreement that PermaWar against "terror" is stupid.  I find this to be one of the most important issues we face.  Because from this PermaWar flows all sorts of ugly, unConstitutional waste, distraction and chaos.

                Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

                by maxschell on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 10:06:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, they were angry because the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  Bills they wanted were watered down by the RW screaming Socialism.  Sounds familiar.  

                  Another thing that needs to be considered here is that shutting down all Insurance companies in a short period of time is going to make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk.  They employ a huge number of people and have, for quite some time, been the main growth industry in this country.

                  My hunch is that there will be incremental steps here - okay, the insurance and pharmaceutical companies haven't cooperated, they're still overcharging and refusing to cover...... so we need to expand the PO to include everyone who is turned down by Insurance companies.  Okay, small businesses aren't getting the help they need in order to insure their employees, we need to expand the PO to include small businesses.  And so on.  That allows the Insurance companies to downsize slowly, and for their experienced employees to either find jobs in a government run program or to look outside the industry.  

                  The switch to single-payer can't happen until enough people in this country get over their brain-washing about how horrible government is.  Incremental change will dull that knife.

                  I still think Dems blew it when they didn't continue to push for reform after the Clintons were savaged.  We could be so much further along in this process.  

                  Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

                  by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 11:05:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  How was Medicare "watered down"? (0+ / 0-)

                    Are you talking about the age requirement?  It's clear there was no "private" option for Medicare, so I don't know what else you could be talking about.  

                    And, I am not advocating "shutting down all Insurance companies."  I don't know anyone who is advocating that.  

                    Your hunch might be right, but post-60s history shows us time and time again that the corporate interests are in control.  ERISA is a great example of a law that was touted as a great piece of legislation and then quickly shown to be a trojan horse for companies seeking to deny care and benefits.

                    That is what will happen here if this bill goes through.

                    Re: Afghanistan, it is a shitshow, and Obama is in it up to his neck.  It's pathetic.

                    Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

                    by maxschell on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 02:17:02 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  IIRC the original (0+ / 0-)

                      bill was much more inclusive and Republican amendments stripped a lot of coverage out.  I'll have to go back and reread the info.  My dad talked a lot about these things - he was still mad about the Clinton fiasco, and he hated Republican bullshit.  He's the one who told me that hey haven't changed their tune in at least 80 years and they've done damage to every piece of major social services legislation using the same old tactics.  I sometimes tuned him out, which I now regret.

                      He was most annoyed about Social Security legislation.  This might have been the first time the Republicans went balls to the wall on fear of Socialism - and they've not changed a thing since then!

                      Actually, I'm the one who wants insurance companies to disappear - I want single-payer, government run, non-profit healthcare.  I just want to ensure that tens or hundreds of thousands of people don't end up unemployed and desperate.

                      As far as Afghanistan goes, Obama said he'd pursue that war during the campaign.  I voted for him anyway, and I'll do my best to support his Presidency even though I think war is the stupidest idea human beings have ever  come up with.  I'll believe in the evolution of our species when I see an end to wars.  

                      Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

                      by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 02:42:41 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Oh I'm sorry I miscounted. (0+ / 0-)

              That extra month makes all the difference in the world, doesn't it?  Surely 30 more days was enough time for him to handle all the things he's "failing" so miserably to handle.

              Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

              by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 07:47:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  That's purist talk, hombre! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maxschell, Magnifico

      Or DFH talk.  I forget which.

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