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View Diary: Conventional wisdom, wrong as usual (189 comments)

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  •  How 'bout that comparison? (0+ / 0-)

    I love it.  Yes, let's compare what is currently being considered in Congress vs. Medicare, Social Security and the VA.  

    I welcome that comparison.  Once a rational person makes that comparison, there is little doubt what he or she would choose.

    I'll give you a hint about the key difference: there ain't no private insurance involved AT ALL in either Medicare, Social Security or the VA!  

    You brought it up lover.

    In fact, just imagine if George W. Bush had his way and had turned Social Security private.  We would all be totally fucked right now.  So let's make that comparison.  There is little doubt that it will not be favorable to "your" side.

    Yo and btw, I know a lot about military logistics.  And it does not take 11 months to get people out of dodge.  

    Maybe if "that part of the world" is so fucking dangerous, we should get the fuck out?

    Maybe I have no clue what the President is "trying to achieve" in "that part of the world" but I know that I'm sick of paying my hard-earned tax dollars to military contractors to kill innocent people there?

    Maybe I've read some history of the region and know that there is little use in occupying it, like we are now?

    Maybe I think there are better ways of fighting "terror".

    Finally, maybe you should get your facts straight -- 11 months is 11 months, not 10.

    Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

    by maxschell on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 08:47:54 PM PST

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    •  And Progressives of their eras (0+ / 0-)

      nevertheless spouted all the same objections when those pieces of legislation were watered down before passage.

      Maybe we shouldn't have gotten in to those areas?  Maybe we should have apprehended bin Ladin when he was close at hand and left immediately?  Maybe you don't know enough about military strategy to extrapolate all the variables on getting all our soldiers out of Iraq.  If you do, why aren't you in the Pentagon as an advisor?

      As for history, I'm aware that all potential occupying forces have been unable to take Afghanistan - isn't it back to Alexander the Great?  I mean if Genghis Khan was stopped cold that's a pretty impressive record on their part.  I suspect President Obama has read as much history as you have.  I don't think he's planning to occupy Afghanistan and try to turn it into a homogeneous nation.

      There's no way to "fight" terror.  That's why it's terrifying.  It's been a silly idea from day one, and typical of the US to think our firepower and military will be of any use at all.  This is where diplomacy and a really good intelligence network take over.  I think Obama is also aware of this and that's why he's working so hard to improve America's standing all over the world.  I'm not a CIA/NSA insider so I don't know what's happening with intelligence gathering, but I suspect that's no longer being neglected or farmed out to Blackwater and KBR types.

      I'm tired of paying tax dollars when churches and major corporations and the wealthy are weaseling out of their responsibilities.  I've been tired of it for decades.  What's the answer?  Obama has made it clear that he's got people looking into the whole defense contractor mess.  I think it irritates him as much as it irritates us and I expect he'll do a lot to clean yet another mess up as soon as possible.  

      Unless Progressives neutralize him first.    

      Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

      by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 07:45:07 AM PST

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      •  Really, "progressives" spouted same objections? (0+ / 0-)

        Sorry, as I explained in my comment, they didn't have to spout the "same" objections because those programs were managed by the Federal government, NOT private insurance companies.  

        Where progressive should have stood up is over the ERISA legislation, which is one of the primary reasons there has been such a massive redistribution of wealth in this country.  Sadly because of the Nixon debacle, they were focusing on other matters.

        On a positive note, it sounds like we are in agreement that PermaWar against "terror" is stupid.  I find this to be one of the most important issues we face.  Because from this PermaWar flows all sorts of ugly, unConstitutional waste, distraction and chaos.

        Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

        by maxschell on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 10:06:07 AM PST

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        •  Yes, they were angry because the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maxschell

          Bills they wanted were watered down by the RW screaming Socialism.  Sounds familiar.  

          Another thing that needs to be considered here is that shutting down all Insurance companies in a short period of time is going to make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk.  They employ a huge number of people and have, for quite some time, been the main growth industry in this country.

          My hunch is that there will be incremental steps here - okay, the insurance and pharmaceutical companies haven't cooperated, they're still overcharging and refusing to cover...... so we need to expand the PO to include everyone who is turned down by Insurance companies.  Okay, small businesses aren't getting the help they need in order to insure their employees, we need to expand the PO to include small businesses.  And so on.  That allows the Insurance companies to downsize slowly, and for their experienced employees to either find jobs in a government run program or to look outside the industry.  

          The switch to single-payer can't happen until enough people in this country get over their brain-washing about how horrible government is.  Incremental change will dull that knife.

          I still think Dems blew it when they didn't continue to push for reform after the Clintons were savaged.  We could be so much further along in this process.  

          Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

          by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 11:05:51 AM PST

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          •  How was Medicare "watered down"? (0+ / 0-)

            Are you talking about the age requirement?  It's clear there was no "private" option for Medicare, so I don't know what else you could be talking about.  

            And, I am not advocating "shutting down all Insurance companies."  I don't know anyone who is advocating that.  

            Your hunch might be right, but post-60s history shows us time and time again that the corporate interests are in control.  ERISA is a great example of a law that was touted as a great piece of legislation and then quickly shown to be a trojan horse for companies seeking to deny care and benefits.

            That is what will happen here if this bill goes through.

            Re: Afghanistan, it is a shitshow, and Obama is in it up to his neck.  It's pathetic.

            Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

            by maxschell on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 02:17:02 PM PST

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            •  IIRC the original (0+ / 0-)

              bill was much more inclusive and Republican amendments stripped a lot of coverage out.  I'll have to go back and reread the info.  My dad talked a lot about these things - he was still mad about the Clinton fiasco, and he hated Republican bullshit.  He's the one who told me that hey haven't changed their tune in at least 80 years and they've done damage to every piece of major social services legislation using the same old tactics.  I sometimes tuned him out, which I now regret.

              He was most annoyed about Social Security legislation.  This might have been the first time the Republicans went balls to the wall on fear of Socialism - and they've not changed a thing since then!

              Actually, I'm the one who wants insurance companies to disappear - I want single-payer, government run, non-profit healthcare.  I just want to ensure that tens or hundreds of thousands of people don't end up unemployed and desperate.

              As far as Afghanistan goes, Obama said he'd pursue that war during the campaign.  I voted for him anyway, and I'll do my best to support his Presidency even though I think war is the stupidest idea human beings have ever  come up with.  I'll believe in the evolution of our species when I see an end to wars.  

              Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

              by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 02:42:41 PM PST

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    •  Oh I'm sorry I miscounted. (0+ / 0-)

      That extra month makes all the difference in the world, doesn't it?  Surely 30 more days was enough time for him to handle all the things he's "failing" so miserably to handle.

      Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

      by I love OCD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 07:47:47 AM PST

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