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View Diary: Aliens, Elves, and the Politics of Utopia (238 comments)

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  •  And your point is? (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying there's no difference between Bush and Obama? If that's what you think, you're seriously delusional. The rest of us are proud to have Obama as our president and see a HUGE difference between him and Bush.

    •  And my point is: (0+ / 0-)

      Well, you're sort of making my point by making that statement without providing evidence.

      Off the top of my head I would say Bush and Obama agree 100 percent on the underlying logic of, if not the details of

      *Government spying
      *the war on terror
      *the welfare state and the idea that we should all be managed by inefficient and corrupt bureaucracies
      *the military-industrial complex
      *torture

      and they agree, most importantly, on what makes all these things possible, which is

      centralized banking by a private organization and centralized control of the economy, the ability by a few individuals to create wealth from their imaginations, and to cause cruel boom and bust cycles through manipulation of interest rates.

      This last one is what actually the biggest problem, the factor that makes all the other evils possible, since how a thing is--or isn't--financed determines its success (check out how candidate Obama was financed)--and Obama, like Bush, is either ignorant of the role manipulation of money matters plays, or he's an accessory to the crime.

      I mean, I'm just basing all this on what they do or have done. I know that's weird. You got me cold on the fact that they look and sound different. I already gave you that.

      •  Your criticism of Obama (0+ / 0-)

        It sounds like you have very little in common with the President or his agenda. While we need all the supporters we can get, I don't see how the President, or any president for that matter, can avoid disappointing you. Your agenda, while noble in theory, will never fly with most Americans.

        •  Cop out (0+ / 0-)

          Another Obama supporter who can't support him with logic. So you attempt to dismiss reasoned criticisms by dismissing me personally as someone too idealistic. Pathetic.

          My question is, if you can't counter this evidence that Obama and Bush are basically identical on all of the most vital issues--on the issues that will determine how your children and grandchildren (if that applies) will live--and die--then why do you support this lowlife?

          Please answer in specific terms if you can.

          •  I see plenty of differences (0+ / 0-)

            The President just delivered on a promise that all Democratic presidents have made (but few attempted) since the time of Harry Truman. That's one huge difference.

            The President has shifted our focus from Iraq to the true threat in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That's a major difference.

            The President has sought to negotiate with Iran and only shifted to sanctions when the Iranians rebuffed his outreach.

            The President has supported cap and trade and responsible energy production. That's another major change from the Bush years.

            The President is on his way to closing the prison at Guantanamo and has made sure that even the 9/11 planners will receive due process and their day in court. That's a HUGE difference.

            I think that's enough to make my point.

            •  Uh.... (0+ / 0-)

              I think that does make your point, which is, you're satisfied with minute details that you hope indicate "change" even when the monster moves in the same exact direction.

              Sanctions punish the regular, working, struggling people who have no choice in these matters. They constitute an act of war.

              Further they demonstrate Obama's kinship with Bush in the insane logic that we have the right to dictate who does and doesn't have what military technology. This from the only country who's ever dropped atomic bombs on civilians.

              His general attitude toward the Mid East is also a demonstration of the insane notion that "terrorists" hate freedom--not the fact that we disrupt their politics with our CIA, fund and arm tyrants, starve and butcher their families, and march up and down their streets with AKs, etc., etc., and have been for generations. I'm sure you were upset when Bush uttered this hate freedom nonsense, but look at you lapping it up now.

              Just the issue of Iran shows the complete failure of logic when one tries to defend Obama. The bullshit has a different feel, the tactics, and belief systems, are, once again, identical.

              Cap and trade? Another set of convoluted government regulations that will ultimately consolidate power at the top. Guantanamo? Research it before you pop off. Obama's waffling, lying and bumbling here is another illustration of my point. He has no problem with the idea of torture or the gross violation of habeas corpus--hell, he has no bottom line convictions about anything if you watch his actions--or he would be fucking outraged and would have used his IMMENSE power as president to put a stop to all this immediately.

              So, yeah, your specific examples do indeed illustrate your point and mine. You're happy with empty gestures and nonsense. You have no interest, whatsoever, in substance or a person having principles that you can comprehend and identify. Just so long as he has the right label.

              •  If you dislike Obama this much (0+ / 0-)

                Does this mean you won't be voting for him in 2012? I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you about these being trivial or minute matters. These are what he campained on and these are what he is acting on. He never campaigned to end the military industrial system or to withdraw from Afghanistan and the Middle East. If you are unhappy with the Obama administration but voted for him (I don't know and shouldn't assume that's the case), you have yourself to blame for just not listening to him and letting your hopes cloud what he was actually saying.

                •  No, (0+ / 0-)

                  I became disillusioned with Obama after I initially researched his positions and his voting record. I did not vote for him. But I'm nonetheless amazed at how obscene the contradiction is between people's perceptions of him and the hideous reality.

                  It's not that he said he would fight the military0-industrial complex, it's that he was marketed, and marketed himself in such a way that it was assumed by most of his supporters that he would be instinctively against such a thing. In fact, he's a willing tool of it and his record proves it. I knew this beforehand and voted accordingly. Most rabid Obama supporters assumed he was MLK, and they continue to be content with ignorance and "hope." Yourself being an example, if I may say so.

                  It seems to me you have extremely low standards for a leader. He's pursuing fascist policies based on fascist premises, only different from Bush's in how they're sold to us. And yet you make weak excuses and grasp at anything that might be counted positive, even when the massive bulk of the evidence is negative and depressing.

            •  Oh yeah, missed this! (0+ / 0-)

              Delivered on the healthcare promise! Look at the details of the bill!!! It serves special interests, accomplishes none of the altruistic goals it supposedly had. It's a joke. Why? Because government is consistently two things: Inefficient and corrupt. It'll run healthcare just like it runs public schools and wars. Idiotically. To have faith that pencil pushers and gray-suited drones are going to successfully oversee the medical industry is, like the work discussed in the above article, part sci fi, part fantasy. In fact, those literate and interested can trace the current state of the medical industry to ... wait for it ...

              GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS! brought to you by the same people who are going to now fix the problem with ... wait for it ...

              GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS! Which will create infinitely more problems, which will be addressed with, yeah, you get it. Government regulations.

              It's inevitable. Government is, as my distant ancestor Tom Paine said, evil.

              How about this: A very significant portion of the nation doesn't want it? Do you have the right to force them, under the threat of violence, into paying for it and participating in it? I'm curious ... Isn't such an idea, by definition, fascist? What's your philosophical take on that?

      •  You are on crack (0+ / 0-)

        Point 3 clinches it.

        Too bad, because the rest is fine.  What does government make YOU do?  What control does it exert that it shouldn't be?

        The '60s were simply an attempt to get the 21st Century started early....Well, what are we waiting for? There's no deadline on a dream!

        by Panurge on Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 08:37:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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