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View Diary: Orthodox Union condemns attack on mosque (142 comments)

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  •  I don't care if they're Zionist or not. (5+ / 0-)

    Not being Zionist doesn't make them better than the "Zionist" settlements.

    These settlements are built on stolen land, and the government of Israel continues to encourage this. How can you not see that the dehumanization of Palestinians which makes the theft of their land acceptable also leads to the destruction of Palestinian holy places.

    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

    by unspeakable on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 11:52:18 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I think that Christopher and unspeakable (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, Terra Mystica, Captain C

      are right in this case - the settlement projects do have to do with the vandalism in the mosques. There is a movement in within the settlement community to distance itself from the criminals within. Certainly that is admirable but, it is disingenuous.

      This is part of the problem around the settler movement - they are allied with some seriously nasty characters. Every illegal outpost or settlement that is expanded adds to the feeling that the settlers can do anything.

      The continued building, the expansion in and around East Jerusalem, the lack of prosecutions in settler violence (and I am not talking about the car incident), all of that does indirectly contribute to a political atmosphere that tolerates this kind of desecration.

      I applaud the OU for their speaking out. As I applaud Charlie for bringing this to our eyes. It is important for the religious community to purge the criminals and miscreants from their midst. They could have stayed silent and they didn't. That is a worthy action.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 12:04:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am part of the religious community and (8+ / 0-)

        belong to OU member congregations. But the Jewish religious community is so fractured, it is hard to call it a single "community". People who would torch mosques would not find much support from OU congregations. But as a religious Jew, I still must condemn this even though the perpetrators and their supporters won't listen to me. It is important to say over and over again that Judaism does NOT support arson against mosques!

        All my IP addresses have been banned from Redstate.com.

        by charliehall on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 12:07:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, (4+ / 0-)

          a certain user in these threads has argued, without any objections from the other Jewish kossacks, that any method is justifiable if the goal is the protection of Jews. Someone can make the case, however odious it may be — and indeed it has been made by various rabbis such as Shmuel Avner — that such an attack serves that very purpose.

          So it seems to me that this:

          It is important to say over and over again that Judaism does NOT support arson against mosques!

          is not something that all Jews agree on.

          Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

          by unspeakable on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 12:16:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you're referring to me (0+ / 0-)

            I suggested no such thing.

            I suggested that any method is justifiable to save a life (whether Jewish or gentile) other than murder, idolatry or adultery.

            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

            by oldskooldem on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 12:22:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes (5+ / 0-)

              you argued that Judaism justifies the mass humiliation of Arabs, ostensibly in order to save lives.

              And nobody here has taken issue with your interpretation or questioned its rationale. I wonder why?

              How am I, or other Arabs, supposed to accept that you think your faith justifies my humiliation simply because of my ethnicity? If this is the attitude of Israel's supporters, and they do not combat your racism, then there is no room for any kind of dialogue. At all.

              •  I would like to see the quote (0+ / 0-)

                since you are calling all Pro-I people out. Please send me it. You claim OSD said something - he claims he did not. What was the quote? Let's go over it since that is a pretty heavy duty charge.

                Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 04:42:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  here (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jon the antizionist jew

                  just one of the threads on the topic:

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  It all started in this diary:

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  •  You both misrepresent the postion (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Paul in Berkeley, oldskooldem

                    after the fact and frankly it is pretty obvious that this thread was "spoken" in anger by both of you.

                    What OSD actually said:

                    I support systematic law enforcement measures to save life.  I don't believe in humiliation just to humiliate.  But just yesterday, a murdering terrorist was stopped by these policies with a 32 pound bomb.  Stopping just one of these evil murderers is justification for policies that are more stringent than the policies in, say, Iowa or Montana.  When the murderous thugs stop, so will the law enforcement measures intended to stop them.

                    Now in certain cases these policies do work but more than not they are used justify all kinds of "profiling".

                    Now as far as Israel's security - OSD is right when it comes to general security. Checking everyone'sbags in public places, grenade netting on buses, calling in lone packages to bomb squads and so forth I believe and so forth ARE legitimate.

                    When I was in last in Israel EVERYONE was subject to certain security measures. I found these to be necessary. OSD in his anger though did not clarify his meanings regarding security and by calling nathan a racist triggered nathan's own reaction.
                    When though people are evicted from their homes in East Jerusalem or are prevented from going to work in collective punishment that is security that may not be worth the price.

                    Now sorta you are the one saying that OSD believes in a more extreme version of Zionism than I have heard him express. Your accusations are also triggered as angry. You have even gone so far with me though in fairness I have gone there with you as well though I think we both realize that is not the case.

                    In the thread that you presented though OSD clearly states that he feels security overrides everything in presenting the loss of life - Jew or Gentile. I disagree with his arguments as I think abusive security can cause more problems than it solves. Look at our experience here with Dick Cheney. HOWEVER, I don't see him doing what you claim directly.

                    On the other hand and always ready with a remark is Eiron who says this:

                    Well, not just any life (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:corvo, Anorish

                    in some theology, saving a Jewish life is worth innumerable other lives.  That was the moral framework for Cast Lead.

                    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                    by Eiron on Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 02:52:30 PM PST

                    I saw OSD's comment and I read it differently but I do see how it could be taken a certain way.

                    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 06:40:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  honestly (3+ / 0-)

                      I am so so over trying to have a dialogue with racists and those who justify racism or excuse it. oldskooldem explicitly uses Judaism to justify humiliation of Arabs. He made this point explicitly and repeatedly, over and over. This is nothing more than racist racial profiling he is justifying.

                      I am officially done with you. And with the Zionist racists littering this place. There will not be peace as long as people are ethnic nationalists and do not support equality. Zionism, liberal or conservative, has dehumanized Arabs and Palestinians from the outset. The only solution is a one-state solution of equal rights, and no more justifications for the privileging of one ethnic group over another. Nothing justifies that kind of racism against Palestinians, not Judaism, not Jewish suffering, not Jewish history.

                      Good luck with your attempts at dialogue with Arabs and Palestinians. I think I speak for most (if not all) of us when I say that you guys are full of shit.
                      Ciao.

                      •  Ciao have fun man (3+ / 0-)

                        No one justified or excused racism - but hey have at your delusions and your accusations.  

                        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 08:23:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  BTW - Stay Classy by (5+ / 0-)

                        comparing Zionists to trssh

                        And with the Zionist racists littering this place.

                        and look Jon the antizionist Khazer uprates that. Excellent move. Really. Still nathan none of us are going to stay away from our advocacy of a peaceful two state solution and civil rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel.

                        So please cast all the aspirations and lies that you like. If that makes you feel better - more power to you.

                        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 09:35:44 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What happened to Fryd Daze??? (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                          We obviously need a place to chill out and have some fun together.

                          Wouldn't it be great if we could all meet up in a bar with great music, dance and drink with no knowledge of who is "I" or "P"?  Then we could bond as people without all the insane baggage we now carry.

                          Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                          by hikerbiker on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:16:43 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Frydaze are gone (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldskooldem, volleyboy1

                            because volleyboy reached out, in an attempt at friendship, and nathan and his ilk spit in volleyboy's face. I told volleyboy that what he was doing was pretty much like Obama trying bipartisanship with the Republicans. It just ain't worth it.  Obviously, the pro-P public relations machine is quite effective, as you can tell from the extremely high levels of sympathy for the Palestinian cause among the American public. Recently it topped 17 percent!

                            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                            by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:21:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hey man at least I tried (4+ / 0-)

                            BUT... just because nathan and Jon the antizionist Khazar happen to think we are like trash "littering" the site doesn't mean everyone does.

                            Not only that but we still have a moral obligation to seek peace - but not at the expense of Israel as the Homeland of the Jewish People.

                            Hey at least he and Jon are honest finally about their feelings regarding Peace. Oh well.... Look how well that has worked out.

                            Kinda sux in the end though. The thing is the Pro-Peace people here are actually good people though unlike the GOP who really are not. There has to be a way one way or another to make it work.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:32:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  jon is a jew (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fire bad tree pretty

                            no one except perhaps stormfronters and neo nazi types is making the argument these Khazar jews are not jews. are you going to continue w/this pattern of name calling that denies (not ignores) his self identification as a jew? you do not have to answer that but please stop. this is not a sands diary where even there it would be a slur.

                          •  That was a snarky remark (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Paul in Berkeley, oldskooldem

                            made after Jon uprated a comment comparing Zionists to trash:

                            I am officially done with you. And with the Zionist racists littering this place.

                            so....

                            Remember I was the one who said in all honesty in the past diary that Jon can identify as whatever he wants and it is not up to us to tell him what he really is.

                            On the same time if he is going to uprate a comment implying in my mind I am "trash" then I am going to give him back what he is dishing.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:47:13 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i think... (4+ / 0-)

                            the days of good faith and respectful discussion might be over for now hiker, based on what i have seen in the past few days from a variety of people that know better. and on that note, in dedication to fryday and the freezing cold here...

                            "I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:21:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL cg (3+ / 0-)

                            that one is good - We can have our own little Fry'd Daze here.

                            I saw a great analysis on the Americans for Peace Now Website (Commented on in this diary) regarding the Freeze that is not really a freeze. They broke it down really well.

                            AND I get to listen to Live Jimi playing now in the background the best blues song in history:

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:27:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Man no one plays the blues (3+ / 0-)

                            like Jimi. Just gotta say that. But this Led Zepplin version of You Shook me is pretty freakin' good:

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:35:52 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Have you guys ever heard of a band (3+ / 0-)

                            called Comets on Fire. I am listening to them on this rhapsody channel called Lysergic Listening. They are really good - kind of trippy sixties stuff but, I like that stuff a lot. Everyone tells me I was born 10 years too late - I take that as a compliment. I dig sixties stuff and since I had two older brothers and an older sister (way older) I got a full dose of it at home.

                            My first album that anyone bought me was my brother buying me Jimi's Axis as Bold as Love......

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 11:03:03 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            i have heard of arcade fire though.

                            "I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 11:07:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Arcade Fire is differemt (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, canadian gal

                            they are more Pop. They are good though I like them I am just going through this phase of Late Sixties Acid Rock kind of SF music scene stuff. Not sure why but it just always sounds good to me.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 11:12:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Here is a band you should check out (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            They are FANTASTIC:

                            http://www.youtube.com/...

                            I really like this band a lot.... They are called Outrageous Cherry.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 11:38:00 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  dr. izzeldin abuelaish... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, volleyboy1

                            has been in the news here a lot lately... what tragedy he has had to endure yet he continues to promote peace. what an inspiration.

                            "I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:40:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yep the guy (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, canadian gal

                            is a total inspiration to everyone. If the stupid assholes who run the Yesha councils and run the government in Gaza could just learn from him.

                            May G-d bless this man, we really can all learn from him. I hope he comes to San Francisco - I will take my children to see him. He is an example for all of us.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:46:04 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They are done (4+ / 0-)

                            I can't do them in good conscience anymore. I like what they were but, with the hatred and ridiculous meme's floating around honestly it seems a waste.

                            Your idea of a general hangout would be good but people have their own ideas on the internet.

                            Your comment below is dead on.... I really had learned a lot from people.

                            I for one still do support two states with a just peace for Jews and Palestinians. We all can live together despite the hatred and allegations on both sides.

                            I think the people there will find a way.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:22:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  i find (0+ / 0-)

                          racists and enablers of racism equivalent to trash.

                          Look at you, jump to the defense of a segregationist racist like oldskooldem. Tell me, do you agree that Judaism justifies humiliating me?

                          the problem with all of you and your bullshit is you like the idea of "dialogue" with Arabs only to make you feel better about yourselves because you are god liberals. I'm not interested in being part of a bullshit dialogue which is not based on human rights and equality. All the while, you've all internalized the racist aspects of Zionism to the point that you don't even think that what is obviously racist is racist anymore.

                          So really, in all my time here, there is not one person I think gives a damn about real equality or the rights of refugees. All I've seen is people making racist arguments about Palestinian birth-rates and shit like that. You can take that kind of discourse and shove it.

                          But, speaking of birth-rates, I look forward to the day when Palestinians out-number Israeli Jews, and they demand equality, and the racist system that oppresses them is dismantled. You guys are on the wrong side. All of you.

                          •  I did not jump to anyone's defense (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Paul in Berkeley

                            neither his nor yours. I think you mis-read him and I think he wrote something that was very poorly thought out.

                            Look at you, jump to the defense of a segregationist racist like oldskooldem. Tell me, do you agree that Judaism justifies humiliating me?

                            Of course it does not.

                            Notice I said this:

                            Now as far as Israel's security - OSD is right when it comes to general security. Checking everyone'sbags in public places, grenade netting on buses, calling in lone packages to bomb squads and so forth I believe and so forth ARE legitimate.

                            Notice the word EVERYONE - that does not say just Palestinians it says E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E.

                            Further note this:

                            When I was in last in Israel EVERYONE was subject to certain security measures. I found these to be necessary. OSD in his anger though did not clarify his meanings regarding security and by calling nathan a racist triggered nathan's own reaction.
                            When though people are evicted from their homes in East Jerusalem or are prevented from going to work in collective punishment that is security that may not be worth the price.

                            That hardly sounds like a ringing endorsement of profiling now does it?

                            But, speaking of birth-rates, I look forward to the day when Palestinians out-number Israeli Jews, and they demand equality, and the racist system that oppresses them is dismantled. You guys are on the wrong side. All of you.

                            This is exactly what we are talking about - thank you for making the case for progressive Zionism. If the current Occupation continues that is exactly what will happen, that's why a two state solution based around Taba is necessary to preserve a Jewish Homeland and Democracy.

                            So I can see why Progressive Zionism bothers you more than Likudnikim. It is not because "they supposedly are what we really are like". It is because you know if we (Progressive Zionists) win out your wishes WON'T come to pass. When I say your wishes I mean - a secular democratic State combining the peoples.

                            This is an option we know won't work, there won't be peace. We are too different not have different states.

                            You misrepresent a lot in this thread and you are welcome to that. But you are not going to get your One State - not at this point in history. Perhaps when the world has moved past petty bickering and religious inspired mayhem (All people suffer from that) maybe.... But not now, and not for the foreseeable future.

                            In that future though - I do agree with you ultimately it would be good. Just it is the wrong thing at the wrong time.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:26:48 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Seriously, dude (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Paul in Berkeley

                            I'm happy to defend every word of what I said, but I have no ability to respond to false namecalling.  Take on my statements.  Happy to get into a theological discussion with you about pikuach nefesh.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:54:18 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Do you feel that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldskooldem

                            I am accurately portraying what you said or am I wrong in my interpretation.

                            I realize the comment was to nathan - but I am curious if I am reading you wrong.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:56:13 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  More or less, yeah... (0+ / 0-)

                            This started with an assertion that strip searching is humiliating so it is, by its very nature, wrong.  I responded that according to Jewish law, almost anything that can be done to save lives is justified.  I'm honestly shocked I got so much push back on the point.  Are there really people who think that its okay if suicide bombers blow innocent people up so as to spare people the occasional indignity of being strip searched?  That seems pretty extreme.  

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 02:54:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  wow. (4+ / 0-)

                        Way to use that broad brush.  

                        I think that many of our discussions here have been fruitful and enlightening.

                        It would be a shame if we couldn't continue the dialogue out here in cyberspace.  Doesn't bode well for hopes of peace on the ground, if we can't at least do that.

                        :(

                        Sad.

                        Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                        by hikerbiker on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:13:13 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  O/T (3+ / 0-)

                          Happy Hanukkah to all of you.  My optimism for peace is...uh...well it's MIA right now after this week.  Thanks vb for trying Frydaze, it was good pursuit.  I don't think any of us are in that mindframe right now.  

                          Right now, IMHO, if I-P here was outlawed, it would be a better site.  

                          Peace, latkes and dreidels to you all.

                          •  Shalom v' Chag Sameach (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker

                            This is when we have to reach for peace but if people from the other side here don't want to engage (and it so far is only two of them) then no problem we can still work towards a fair solution. Our first job is to work towards Peace on our side. To help groups like Shalom Achshav stop the settlements that are destroying the State. To help stop the turn rightward in Israel. To reach out to try to find people on the other side that are sick of fighting. That is what we need to do.

                            I/P should not be outlawed here - it is reasonable on the Progressive side for us to debate this course. Progressives are being misled by the silly cartoonish representations of Israel and the Zionist movement. We need to combat that. First though we need to put our own "house in order". Look, Ben-Gurion, Eban, Rabin had a great dream. We owe it to them to continue progressive Zionism in the face of the bigots from our right and from our left. They would not have quit and we should not.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 11:48:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I used to agree vb (3+ / 0-)

                            but the hate and ignorance in general, not those comments above have steared me otherwise.  Unless I-P can be a place where hateful notions are somehow put in check, I don't support those conversations anymore.  One cannot obtain peace by furthering hate.

                            Any numbers of Jews have dropped out of I-P under similar circumstances and it never seems to really make a difference. Should I stay in these conversations, I will certainly take a different approach.  Right now, to me, the hate reflects really badly on this site.  I don't care to persuade others of that view, I'm just being blunt.  The conversations have passed the point of intolerance.  

                            Peacework outside of DKos is a different story altogether.  Of course peaceful groups and a dream of peace should be supported.  My optimism is though really dented and absent today and will be for some time.  
                             

                          •  Hang in there blue (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker

                            You know the saying: "It's always darkest before the dawn".

                            I believe.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 12:02:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ;( (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, canadian gal

                            Here, have a latke.

                            And a little jelly donut.

                            :(

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 07:23:30 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oops (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, canadian gal

                            I meant :( not ;(.

                            I hate winks and never do it.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 07:41:04 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Right back atcha (0+ / 0-)

                        You're a fucking joke.  Talk about full of shit. The whites of your eyes are brown, that's how full of shit you are.

                        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                        by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 10:19:05 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  i'd just like to (0+ / 0-)

                      acknowledge this one sentence of yours that proceeded so many others.

                      Now in certain cases these policies do work but more than not they are used justify all kinds of "profiling".

                      other than that, it reads like an evasion. checking out the links and reflecting there are hundreds of checkpoints in the west bank where palestinians are subject to humiliating searches, not even within israel or for israels security but to secure jewish settlers deep within the WB, presumably.

                      we also have a situation where extremist residents walk around w/machine guns on a daily basis. the schools built on stolen land, the religious schools i assume some of them teaching a form of judaism that mirrors the fanatics there. i think you may be glossing over a big chunk of 'hatred'.  thanks for that one sentence, more than not they ARE used justify all kinds of profiling.

                      •  Well zannie I give you credit (0+ / 0-)

                        for acknowledging that though I disagree with your comment. However, that is a starting place.

                        There is no evasion intended. I don't support the occupation so I don't support what is happening in the West Bank. There is an element of humiliation to that but there is also an element of security. You know as well as I do the Second Intifada did have an extremely violent phase.

                        That said, again see this:

                        When I was in last in Israel EVERYONE was subject to certain security measures. I found these to be necessary. OSD in his anger though did not clarify his meanings regarding security and by calling nathan a racist triggered nathan's own reaction. When though people are evicted from their homes in East Jerusalem or are prevented from going to work in collective punishment that is security that may not be worth the price.

                        I clearly state that this is not positive.

                        I think both sides mis-read things honestly and I read OSD as carelessly, angrily defending his people and not thinking of all of the implications that come from that. His comment on religion was that ALL religions talk about their own people. But I see how it could be taken a certain way because he did not clarify.

                        nathan chose to view it one way and went over the top. Given what happens to the Palestinians in the West Bank - I can understand his angst regarding OSD's comment particularly when OSD did not explain.

                        Now I could be reading OSD's comment wrong. If I am then he can correct me. At the same time nathan is wrong to smear everyone with such a broad brush and implying Zionists are "trash" is over the line.

                        As for this:

                        who is israel and where are they? they are protecting these vigilantes. their leaders are free. more are being flown in from ny and palestinians are being moved out of their homes to make way for them and olive groves are being removed for their expansions.

                        They are called Shalom Achshav and most of what remains of the Israeli Left. There is a small portion of people still in Israel that do speak and act against them. Now many here will denounce Peace Now but they are the people working to end this mess.

                        Anyhow, I do appreciate your post even if I disagree with some of it's assumptions. That is what this board is about.

                        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                        by volleyboy1 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:43:15 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  argh (0+ / 0-)

                          i was almost all thru w/a long post and my computer ate it. i know you I clearly state that this is not positive but the thrust of your post was to defend and emotional post analytically which usually just serves to inflame. plus, nathan didn't smear everyone with such a broad brush and implying Zionists are "trash"

                          he said this

                          I am officially done with you. And with the Zionist racists littering this place. There will not be peace as long as people are ethnic nationalists and do not support equality.

                          there are  Zionist racists littering this place and there is also a period between that sentiment and his reference to you. furthermore maybe you are not familiar w/the conversation taking place elsewhere about 'jewish nationalists'. you might want to check out goldberg's latest op ed at forward over the israeli nyt correspondents usage of the term.

                          iow, ethnic nationalist doesn't mean 'zionist' and your broad brush accusation is uncalled for but you're excused.

                          The N.Y. Times and the Jewish Nationalism Question. Bring Your Own Elephant.

                          The New York Times touched off a lively little debate Wednesday morning, probably unwittingly, with an article from its Jerusalem bureau that was headlined “Jewish Nationalists Clash With Palestinians.” You don’t see the term “Jewish nationalist” very often these days, except in historical discussions of Zionism and its attempt to rebuild the Jewish nation. Suddenly, here it is in the newspaper of record, describing a group of people who probably wouldn’t get much sympathy from most Times readers. It seems that more than a few New Yorkers woke up Wednesday morning, scanned the paper over a cup of coffee, came to Page A-12 and suddenly found themselves wondering if the Grey Lady was now using Zionism as a term of abuse, equating the movement for Jewish liberation with its most extreme wing.

                          The answer is to be found, I think, in the ever-growing gap of incomprehension that divides Israelis and American Jews.

                          check it out. as for the rest of my brilliant post its lost forever!

                  •  wow (0+ / 0-)

                    just wow. i missed that initial thread. reviewing them both really turns my stomach. the instinct to break out in song and muse about the good ol fridaze is not following. i think its fair to say we really do need a conversation here, i sense a real limitation of some people to fully acknowledge the depths of whats happening, and the roots of it. i want to thank you nathan for speaking so truthfully. it means a lot to me and it hopefully will advance the level of concepts we allow ourselves to cover.

                    unfortunately it's going to take a lot more condemnation and recognition of what is occurring w/these attacks than that of (thankfully) the american orthodox union and my wish is that it will spur those in israel to do the same and ask themselves how they have facilitated this and how to end it. not to relink again to the manifesto calling for the price tag attacks but for anyone who missed it the first few times the wording of the rabbis that stood out for me was

                    we remember that the war is over Judaism

                    the enemies in this war is over Judaism are not limited to palestinians, muslims or arabs. i've read screeds from the dominionists and as an american i've contemplated what it would be like if our supreme court was infiltrated w/these guys. in a country of 300 million i have some sense of confidence they won't be taking over any time soon although i've had my doubts but in a region the size of palestine there is no padding of 300 million. in your first link oldskool references some 'wacky' ones (relatively harmless sounding eh?) representing only 15%, a small minority of Jews worldwide to which kitty responds

                    But they seem to have a decisive effect on Government policy in Israel.  So it doesn't matter what the vast majority of the world's Jews think -- it only matters what the vicious bigots and fanatics who control Israeli actions in occupied Palestine think.  

                    this war is over Judaism...i think perhaps it might be helpful to recognize the implications of the threat they pose for the entire region under israels control. these would include all the imported american settler fanatics that are helping to drive this movement. 'wacky' doesn't quite cover it. extremism is extremism and i think the territories have some dangerous vigilantes on their hands often times protected by the idf in fact infiltrating the idf.

                    now imagine if the dominionist were to take control of a few states and the population they targeted was racial and they started attacking and killing blacks or hispanics? what is the civil society in israel doing about this? how is regular judaism in israel dealing with this war is over Judaism?

                    let's remember in our civil war the many freedom fighters, including many jews not unlike those who have been protesting in the territories, along side MLK and all the brave people who led that movement. but when push came to shove the feds stepped up. the president stepped up. who is israel and where are they? they are protecting these vigilantes. their leaders are free. more are being flown in from ny and palestinians are being moved out of their homes to make way for them and olive groves are being removed for their expansions. i thinks the people who have a cartoon image of israel might be the ones who are not grasping the depths of this depravity.

                    •  amend (0+ / 0-)

                      i didn't mean to imply the entire 'wacky' bunch, the 15% he sites, are responsible for this kind of stuff because i don't believe that to be the case at all.

                    •  Just in response (0+ / 0-)

                      to your first paragraph. We are all despondent that Fry'd Daze did not work out. It was a concept that had promise.

                      Discussions about music and so forth ARE appropriate when the dialogue is this skewed. What else is there do? It illustrates just how far off the track these discussions have gone. ON BOTH SIDES.

                      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                      by volleyboy1 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:50:58 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh and one thing (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zannie

                      In this mornings paper from Shimon Peres - President of Israel:

                      President Shimon Peres urged officials on Saturday to do everything in their power to bring to justice the people who vandalized a mosque in the West Bank village of Yasuf on the previous day.

                      "The government, the security forces and the law enforcement institutions must take every measure, with the utmost urgency, to find the perpetrators and put them on trial in accordance with the gravity of the acts," Peres said in a statement.

                      http://www.haaretz.com/...

                      Let's see what they do - hopefully these guys are caught soon.

                      I have a feeling that these settlers just destroyed their own movement.. AND if the Government doesn't do anything to them will bring down the current Government.

                      I don't mean that it will happen right away - but this is the first shot in an internal war that will get Israelis thinking about their state and what it can become if they don't get this crap under control.

                      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                      by volleyboy1 on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 09:02:42 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  sometimes you hit the nail (0+ / 0-)

                        I have a feeling that these settlers just destroyed their own movement.. AND if the Government doesn't do anything to them will bring down the current Government.

                        I don't mean that it will happen right away - but this is the first shot in an internal war that will get Israelis thinking about their state and what it can become if they don't get this crap under control.

                        yep. i agree

        •  no matter how fractured (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, Terra Mystica, Gatordiet

          that community may be, it is so vital they stand together in isolating those  acts and the people who carry them out.

          It is important to say over and over again that Judaism does NOT support arson against mosques!

          of course, thanks again for the diary. i hope the voice of the american orthodox community empowers those in israel who must put a hault to this.

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