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View Diary: Why we need to hold our nose and support the Senate HCR bill (UPDATE - Senate Invokes Cloture) (55 comments)

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  •  Credit? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi9

    Did we give Bush or the Republican controlled Congress credit for trying to do something?

    Be it in regards to protecting the country with preemptive wars or the Patriot Act or warrentless wiretapping?

    Giving us tax-cuts to stimulate our economy?

    Giving us the massive Pharmaceutical Deal?

    They certainly tried and the public found out that these policies were massive failures and did not benefit from these policies.

    Is this what we have come to?  It doesn't matter if we truly reform the healthcare industry while we have the power to do so....what matters is we've tried?  

    What good is getting points that we've tried if we continue to push lame-assed reform in the future?

    •  When I say "credit"... (0+ / 0-)

      I mean credit from the general public.  As in, increased approval ratings for Obama and Democrats.

      This will allow us to gain political capital, and push forward on tough legislative fights next year.

      Be it in regards to protecting the country with preemptive wars or the Patriot Act or warrentless wiretapping?

      Giving us tax-cuts to stimulate our economy?

      Giving us the massive Pharmaceutical Deal?

      Look, you're preaching to the choir.  I agree with you on all of these.

      Let me say this.  If you have a moment, turn on C-SPAN.  Right now, I'm listening to John Thune (Liar - SD) talking about the myriad of ways this bill sucks.  He's parroting the same crap that all of his Tea-bagging cohorts are; it's Big Government, it's going to bankrupt the country, we're all going to die, cats and dogs will be living together.

      And then, consider that every progressive Senator, even our dear friend Bernie Sanders, is, reluctantly, supporting passage of the bill.

      Who do you trust?

      And if it's "none of the above", I can't help you.

      Moderates don't change the world. They sit and watch as the world changes around them.

      by StonyB on Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 07:16:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "political capital"... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StonyB

        ...got us this lousy bill.

        60 Senators
        258 Congressmen

        and is this is the best we can offer the people who put them in power?

        And approval ratings for this bill have been dropping and dropping the more watered down it has become.  Wasn't their a general agreement that what cost Creigh Deeds the Virginia governorship was that he wasn't supporting the public option and basically didn't give democrats a reason to go out and vote for the man?  Now Democrats should get excited about voting for Democrats because we are forced to buy health insurance that is provided by the private sector without a public option and without any cost controls?  I can't get excited about that.

        You and I both agree the bill is shit.  Bernie Sanders knows the bill is shit as well.  He's supporting it because he was able to get in his funding for public health centers.  Public health centers are extremely important and beneficial to society and they should be part of the bill but not at the expense of the countless other detrimental aspects of the bill that do not benefit those that most need support.

        Bernie Sanders believes that he can get his funding for these health centers by accepting the bad with the good.  The general public should not have to dig through a pile of shit for a nugget of gold.  We should propose legislation that has nothing but golden nuggets.  

        We need to be the one's who give Bernie Sanders the support he needs to call for leadership that is actually willing to help the American people without getting on our knees to centrists who are bought and paid for by insurance industries.

        To me passing this legislation is doing nothing but enabling those who have profited from delaying, watering down, and standing in opposition to health reform.  And when it does pass, whether it is effective or not it still rewards assholes like Nelson and Lieberman and enables them to continue to do these policies on any piece of legislation they damn well wish and they know they will face no repercussions whatsoever (from their fellow Congressman/Senators and their president at least).  

        To answer your question progressive senators are "reluctantly" supporting it.  Why should they have to show that progressives are the whipped mules of the Senate?  Why should they have to be reluctant about reform?  I think they are reluctant because despite their party having an overwhelming mandate for progressive policies they are pissing it all away to appease 5 senators paid for by the insurance industry.  

        They are reluctantly following orders.  i don't believe they want to.  I think they would rather have Obama tell Reid to get the best things possible via reconciliation and leave Bayh, Landrieu, Lieberman, Nelson, and Baucus cut off from any support of the Democrats whatsoever.  But they don't have the stones to stand up to Obama or to Rahm.  I wish they did, and what I'm fighting for now is for them to find their backbones and tell the president they can't count on them for every goddamn concession.

        So far only the House progressive Caucus has been willing to take a stand...we'll see how long that lasts.

        •  I honestly agree with everything you said. (0+ / 0-)

          Your points are all well-taken, and I endorse them completely.

          So again, at this point, what are our choices?

          Like you, I will continue to fight for the best possible bill.  I will support the Progressive Caucus in the House, and implore them to make this bill as good as it can be.

          But in the end, I'm asking you to answer just two questions.

          Despite how crappy this bill is, wouldn't its defeat be even worse?

          And if your answer is no, defeat is better, what do you think is going to happen to healthcare reform in the future?

          Moderates don't change the world. They sit and watch as the world changes around them.

          by StonyB on Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 08:10:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sure I'll answer (0+ / 0-)
            1. Would it's defeat be worse?

            You could make the argument that yes it would because we don't have all the lovely things that are actually good in the bill, but at the same time we won't have all of the terrible things involved in the bill as well.

            More abortion limitations being passed would not occur.

            Forcing individuals to buy insurance would not occur.

            Fines for refusing to buy insurance (if you don't have any of the pre-approved reasons) will not occur.

            And also avoiding the whole reforming insurance without actually controlling their costs, reimporting drugs, or offerring any sort of alternative rather than private plans that are responsible for the need for reform in the first place.

            Legislation that rewards the people responsible for the crisis...it seems like the financial bailout all over again.

            No I don't think the defeat would be worse because we avoid all of those things I just mentioned.

            What do I think will happen to health reform in the future?

            I expect people to get mad and get agitated.  Mad enough to toss the bums out who watered down this monstrosity, mad enough to demand reconciliation be put through with policies that are actually beneficial without giving massive handouts to pharma and insurers, mad enough to get actual leadership willing to fight for such a move, mad enough to continue to fight for these policies so that when they actually have the power they use it to enact the good without the bad.

            The reason it took 15 years for anyone to talk healthcare reform again was because Republicans had control of Congress (the House at least) from 1995-2006 and the presidency from 2000-2008.  If Democrats want to pass anything substantial it should be now...they should not be content to pass what we currently have because it is more and more unpopular then what was promised to those who put the Democrats into power.

            I don't want to wait another 15 years to do healthcare reform, and I sure as hell don't want to wait 15 years under this new apparent "reform" either.  If Democrats can get it right in regards to healthcare reform it will be easier to make changes in the future, but the way I see it now they are sacrificing far too much of their promises and ensuring their own defeats in the future, and we can look forward to more wandering in the wilderness or watering down even more-so in order to get the support of those who have no interest whatsoever in meaningful reform.

            I can't trust those to lead who continue to submit themselves to a minute minority.  Leaders lead; they do not cower in the face of their subordinates.

            •  Here's what I think will happen... (0+ / 0-)

              if this bill fails.

              - Republican approval ratings will rise, and Democrats ratings will fall.  They will be seen as strong, us as weak.

              - Obama and Congress won't touch healthcare reform again.  Insurance premiums will continue to rise.  Thousands will continue to die due to lack of health insurance.  Tens of thousands will go bankrupt, and/or lose their insurance.

              - The economy will continue to tank, as businesses will be unable to invest in new employees due to the overwhelming burden of healthcare costs.

              - Republicans will make serious gains in both the House and Senate in 2010.  This will cripple Obama's agenda over the last two years of his term.

              Oh yes, people will get "mad and agitated".  But they will direct their anger towards the Democrats, for failing to pass a bill.

              I understand exactly where you're coming from.  I honestly do.

              But we're truly at the point that we need to choose between the frying pan and the fire.

              I can not stress this point enough - those who do not follow politics closely will not blame Republicans if this bill fails.  They will blame President Obama and Congressional Democrats, for spending months on this bill and then not getting it done.

              We MUST pass this bill, make it as good as possible in conference, and work on improving it in the years ahead.

              Moderates don't change the world. They sit and watch as the world changes around them.

              by StonyB on Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 09:25:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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