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View Diary: Health Care By The Numbers (340 comments)

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  •  sigh (10+ / 0-)

    That's a lot more affordable than what some people would pay for insurance.

    A lot more affordable for NO coverage? This is just a dishonest statement. You can't compare a fine for nothing with the cost of insurance. Ridiculous.

    And nothing, absolutely nothing, will prevent premium costs from accelerating. Everyone just glosses over that.

    "I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law" -Obama

    by heart of a quince on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 06:50:12 AM PST

    •  But we'll have insurance, won't we? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      divineorder

      Where does the 'no' insurance come from? If there's no penalty for pre-existing conditions, we're good, right? (Leaving aside your second point.)

      "Just make every mistake in the book, and then experience that pain that results from each mistake." - crystal eyes

      by GussieFN on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 07:15:41 AM PST

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      •  Insurance you can't use. Great. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, formernadervoter, CMYK

        Use the calculator. If you make 16 grand a year, this mandate just took about 1,000 of it away. So now, you've got insurance, but you're just barely above the poverty level. You can't afford to go to the doctor! And your insurance won't kick in until you spend 12,000 a year.

        But hey, if you do get REALLY sick, there is a change.

        You'll still probably be forced to file for bankruptcy and lose everything you've got, but hey, the insurance corporations will be protected from paying out on the "Trade Credit Insurance" they sold the hospital to protect them if you file for bankruptcy and stick them with the bill.

        So not only does your new "insurance" not do anything, but now, the insurance they sold the doctors doesn't have to do anythng either! Win win! They get a state -mandated monopoly on selling pet rocks!

    •  You've got it (5+ / 0-)

      And nothing, absolutely nothing, will prevent premium costs from accelerating. Everyone just glosses over that.

    •  compare it to the cost of medical care (0+ / 0-)

      that's much more realistic.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 07:35:18 AM PST

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      •  Nice gloss over (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CMYK

        n/t

        Gary Wills on Obama's Afghan occupation: "What really matters are the lives of the young men and women he is sending off to senseless deaths."

        by formernadervoter on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 09:34:22 AM PST

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        •   nope, reality (0+ / 0-)

          since medical costs happen whether you have insurance or not.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 10:27:49 AM PST

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          •  pie in the sky (0+ / 0-)

            Medical costs only happen for those who can afford them. You may not be aware, but a lot of the working marginal/working poor don't go to the doctor at all unless it's to the ER for emergencies.

            Forcing them to pay hundreds of dollars (for a plan they have no hope of being able to use due to the high deductibles and out of pockets expenses) because they make above the ridiculously outdated FPL is not only punitive, it's unrealistic. That's what republicans do.

            Party like it's 1929, baby.

            by CMYK on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 11:28:53 AM PST

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            •  bag o' nonsense here (0+ / 0-)

              As if problems only happen if you have insurance. As if you only have health problems if can afford them. On average real families pay 8% of their wages for health care costs.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 12:05:01 PM PST

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              •  You're not getting it (0+ / 0-)

                that chunks of the working poor are not going to any doctors when they have symptoms of health problems, unless it's to the ER. They don't qualify for free clinics and can't afford insurance or doctor visits.

                Going to the doctor is a luxury for them. These bills don't change that.

                Party like it's 1929, baby.

                by CMYK on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 12:11:11 PM PST

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                •  of course they do - you're the one who is not (0+ / 0-)

                  getting it. The working poor is exactly who benefits most, and your claim is demonstrably exaggerated. For example

                  December 19 – A $10 billion investment in community health centers, expected to go to $14 billion when Congress completes work on health care reform legislation, was included in a final series of changes to the Senate bill unveiled today.

                  The provision, which would provide primary care for 25 million more Americans, was requested by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.).

                  As for the premiums, the working poor get the most subsidies (see Krugman link, original post).

                  Those are facts, Your assertions are not.

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by Greg Dworkin on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 12:19:56 PM PST

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                  •  You're confusing "benefit" with "subsidy." (0+ / 0-)

                    They are not, in fact, the same. The subsidies are a joke because they still shackle the working poor and lower-middle-class with paying for mandated insurance policies that don't get them any closer to actual medical care. That's unethical and unrealistic.

                    You're completely exaggerating the "worth" of these forced mandate insurance plans for those least likely to be able to afford it. Forcing people to cough up money they do not have, for insurance plans they cannot use because of high deductibles and out-of-pocket, isn't progressive or sustainable. It's corporate to the hilt.

                    There are a lot of assumptions about those community health centers, but not much is known about the details. How do they solve the real-world problem of affordability for those without healthcare but who make too much to qualify for Medicaid? What about those who need chronic care beyond "primary"? Will these centers be used as pork for political bribes before they're even built?

                    Party like it's 1929, baby.

                    by CMYK on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 01:26:52 PM PST

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                    •  sorry (0+ / 0-)

                      Although i am sympathetic, here's reality:

                      They are not, in fact, the same. The subsidies are a joke because they still shackle the working poor and lower-middle-class with paying for mandated insurance policies that don't get them any closer to actual medical care. That's unethical and unrealistic.

                      Since this is our actual system, subsidies are no joke. What this buys is access to the system. The benefits are no pre-existing conditions, increased community health center funding and elimination of lifetime caps. The subsidies make it practical.

                      You're completely exaggerating the "worth" of these forced mandate insurance plans for those least likely to be able to afford it. Forcing people to cough up money they do not have, for insurance plans they cannot use because of high deductibles and out-of-pocket, isn't progressive or sustainable. It's corporate to the hilt.

                      You are over-exaggerationg their worth(lessness) in order to make a point. For those who qualify (the most needy), Medicaid is actually worth plenty (and this expands that.) The other plans vary, some are better than others.

                      There are a lot of assumptions about those community health centers, but not much is known about the details.

                       That's complete bullshit. FQHC (Federally qualified health centers) exist now and do a world of good - I work with them every day.

                      Don't believe everything you read on the internets. In the real world, these have value.

                      They are not single payer. They do not reform all aspects of the med system. We are not done. But they have value.

                      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 04:16:44 PM PST

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                      •  Well, by now it should be pretty clear that (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't believe everything I read online!

                        Since I don't know how many ppl will be harmed by falling through the built-in cracks in these proposals, I hope I'm overestimating the fail. I don't think it's too far off, though, and it may end up being an underestimation. Beyond that, I'm going to guess that we inhabit different real worlds.

                        For those who qualify (the most needy), Medicaid is actually worth plenty (and this expands that.)

                        As I mentioned, I was specifically referencing the ppl who make too much to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to actually pay those forced mandates. For them, the subsidies are a joke, just as unaffordable as before, but now with  IRS penalties and no additional access to care.

                        I think you'll be surprised at how many that ends up affecting. Perhaps we both will.

                        Party like it's 1929, baby.

                        by CMYK on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 08:42:24 PM PST

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