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View Diary: Health Care By The Numbers (340 comments)

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  •  What is bullshit? (0+ / 0-)

    What are the BS numbers?

    Just wondering.

    There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

    by upstate NY on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 07:49:26 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  About Half of It. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CMYK

      His post (which was linked to in the FP post here) lays out most of the issues, the most glaring of which is the housing costs/property taxes.  The nationwide average (surprise surprise, these numbers are actually available, you don't need to pull them out your ass) is closer to $10k a year, not $20k.  And I can assure you that the utility costs and car loan costs are ridiculously out whack for people in that bracket.

      Moreover, and Nate didn't really get into this, but there's the huge question of who in that bracket is actually going to be affected by the mandate and have issues paying.  70k a year is well over 400% of the poverty line.  Less than 10% of all uninsured Americans belong to that group.  

      Let me repeat that again, almost everyone making that salary is already insured.  Of those who want it, and can't afford it, it's largely the working poor, mostly Black and Hispanic, who lack health insurance in this country.  

      The actual numbers of people who are living that middle class existence you're talking about, and who don't already have insurance is actually quite small.  And a lot of them don't have it because of things like pre-existing conditions.  

      Even if you assume the budget and income assumptions you're making are valid, you're talking about several hundred thousand people, maybe a million in that scenario.  

      Which sucks, but it's hardly the hordes of ticked off middle class Americans we're being warned about.

      •  Frankly, you don't know WTF you are talking about (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, CMYK, greenbastard

        On a $250k house in NY state (which is modest by any means, that's a 1200 sq. foot house), your taxes are $8k a year.

        Mortgage on that is $18k a year.

        Home insurance is $2k a year.

        Utilities, etc., $4k a year.

        One $15,000 car is going to cost you $5k a year in loan money, and in some states you get charged property tax for your car on top of it (Conn. is one example), not to mention car insurance and gas! If anything, I totally underestimated the expense of a car because I wrote a total of $6400 and didn't include gas.

        Silver is totally wrong if he thinks a New Yorker is paying $10k for a 1200 square foot home. That's preposterous. I challenge you to refute my numbers.

        I'm showing $32k a year at a MINIMUM to own that home.

        You also must not know a lot of small business people, because many small businesses do not provide insurance. And many of these people are skilled tradespeople who do make $70k. Then there's the owner of a mom-and-pop luncheonette who also makes $70k. These people exist everywhere. I can go up and down my street and find them.

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 08:20:32 AM PST

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        •  You already have health insurance (0+ / 0-)
          So none of this applied to you.
          •  I grew up in a household (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greenbastard

            without health insurance.

            I'm thinking of the circumstances in which I grew up.

            So, your point is totally bogus and invalid.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 08:25:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You know, it's sad that you're totally willing (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CMYK

            to exploit some people and throw them under the bus. I'm not willing to do that.

            It's an immoral position.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 08:25:56 AM PST

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        •  New York... (0+ / 0-)

          Is not the whole of the country.  The bill has to apply to the entire country.  People living in horrendously expensive enclaves will in fact pay more for things.  Then again, they also earn more on average.

          And why ignore the rest of my post?  

          You claim people making that much will be unable to afford the several thousand dollars after subsidies it'll cost for insurance, but that's not borne out by the stats on who is and isn't uninsured in this country.  The vast majority of people in that income bracket are currently able to afford much higher premiums without subsidies.  After the bill passes, not only will their premiums go down, but it will likely become much more affordable to that small percentage who aren't able to afford it at present.

          •  Horrendously expensive enclaves? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            badger

            Are you serious. Show you don't know much about NY State. Th lowest property taxes in NY are in NY City--because most people rent.

            It's the rest of the state--which has more in common with Appalachia than NY City--that pays the high property taxes.

            So NY state is an enclave?

            Really?

            The reason why NY state taxes are so high is because it provides the highest social safety net in the country, with more health care going to poor people, and more education per pupil.

            By calling the state a horrendously expensive rich enclave, you might as well call for the total dismantling of it's social welfare system, because the way to drive down taxes so that people can better afford private insurance from private insurance in NY, is to cut school payments from localities, dismantle the current medicaid and medicare system, and essentially gut welfare too!

            Bravo!

            I already replied on the last issue in the previous post. Did you miss it?

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 08:48:48 AM PST

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            •  My Family... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CMYK

              Is from Oneonta, I'm well aware of the what the state is like, it's economy, taxes, and real estate.  I hear the complaints (and praises) all the time.

              Are you aware that the state's median household income is well under this $70k you're talking about?  Are you aware that only about 10% of the state makes that kind of money?  Are you aware that the overwhelming majority of that group currently is able to afford insurance with no subsidies reducing the price?

              •  Let's be clear here... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                badger

                I'm talking about people WITHOUT health insurance.

                I obviously am looking at self-employed people making $70k.

                What about that is so difficult for you to understand?

                And your family is from Oneonta, then why in the world would you call my property tax numbers (which clearly state, "in NY") bullshit?

                I don't get you.

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 09:08:41 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

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