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  •  What will Orthodox Catholics say? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pine, sap, third Party please

    Now that their saint now has feet of clay?

    IOKIYAR, eh?

    •  Didn't know Rove was Catholic. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pine, sawgrass727, fl1972

      Not sure what you mean by "Orthodox Catholic" - You got yer Roman aka Latin Rite-ers, your Byzantine Catholics, and a few other obscure Catholics all saying "Yay Pope," then you got your Eastern Orthodoxers, Greek, Russian, and what-not, never known as Catholic, at least in this millennium (give or take fifty years). Maybe you meant orthodox with a lowercase o.

      See the losers in the best bars, meet the winners in the dives -Neil Young

      by danoland on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 06:43:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wikipedia says he's Episcopalian (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pine, Churchill, third Party please

        http://en.wikipedia.org/...
        which is kind-of, sort-of Catholic, and once was half a millennium ago (give or take fifty years), and what with Pope Bene and the Jets' meddling, may yet once again, but probably not.

        See the losers in the best bars, meet the winners in the dives -Neil Young

        by danoland on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 06:46:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Since the Episcopals got their start (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          addisnana, HawkRock33

          because Henry VIII wanted a divorce (annulment, to be precise) and the Pope wouldn't give it to him, there really wouldn't be much point to an Episcopal prohibition on divorce.

          You go to law with the Senate you have, not the Senate you might want to have or wish to have.

          by DanK Is Back on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 06:50:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  fun, but not very accurate (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pine, sawgrass727

            Fun to talk about Henry VIII---but check the facts:

            http://www.episcopalchurch.org/...

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            •  What? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DanK Is Back, Texdude

              Neither of those links deal with why the Episcopal (Which is just the American branch of the Anglican Church) Church was founded.

              Henry VIII did break off from papal authority. He did it in response to not getting an annulment. Is that the only reason? No. Is it what caused it at that moment and place in time? Yes. And look at what happened to Catholics and Protestants in England under his two children, if you think it had nothing to do with the divorce.

              •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

                I should have said "Anglican" but I got caught up in the spirit. Anyway, the two are still together (for the moment).

                Sure, Henry had lots of reasons, one of the main ones being that the church was hogging lots and lots of valuable, untaxed land. The refusal to grant an annulment (which, IIRC, the pope wouldn't do because it would have angered the king of Spain - talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place) was Henry's excuse.

                Point being that, having started a new church in order get himself out of a bad (well, sonless) marriage, Henry was not about to let that church outlaw divorce.

                Parenthetically, I think that Clement (II?) made a huge mistake a couple of hundred years earlier in putting England under the interdict for 10+ years. It showed people that they could indeed get along without the church hovering over them every minute. I have to wonder if Henry's break with Rome would have worked if not for that experience. Yes, it was 200 years earlier, but it helped foster an attitude that England did not need Rome.

                You go to law with the Senate you have, not the Senate you might want to have or wish to have.

                by DanK Is Back on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 09:34:16 PM PST

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        •  he attended a liberal Episcopal Church . . . (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          danoland

          I don't think he formally joined a congregation while he lived in DC, but I saw him a few times in services at St. Columba's Episcopal Church in Tenleytown, which is known for being fairly left-of-center politically.

      •  I didn't say he was Catholic (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue in NC

        but he was the one who exploited the liberal/orthodox (this is the conservative Catholic's preferred term) split in the American RC Church. See:
        Enlightened Catholic: Karl Rove And His Legacy Concerning The Catholic Vote

        It references Peter J. Boyle's September 2008 article in the New Yorker: Party Faithful; Can the Democrats get a foothold on the religious vote?

        Rove's Catholics became convinced that:

        The Administration’s policies clearly reflected a Catholic influence. On Bush’s first workday, he acted to limit federal funding of non-governmental organizations that performed or actively supported abortion as a method of family planning overseas. By the end of his first term, Bush had delivered on every item on a wish list that Hudson says he presented to him at the time of their first formal meeting, in Austin, including its centerpiece, the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, which Bush signed in 2003. That year, Michael Novak explained Bush to an Italian readership in the journal Studi Cattolici. “Never have Catholics had so solicitous a friend in the White House,” Novak wrote. “So pro-Catholic are the president’s ideas and sentiments that there are persistent rumors that, like his brother Jeb, the governor of Florida, G.W. might also become a Catholic.”

        *Emphasis added

        It's a good blog commentary on Karl Rove and how he worked to bring those most conservative of Catholics over to the Republican Party. He worked with Deal Hudson and William Donohue to promote the culture war to Catholics. It wasn't just the evangelicals. Look at the number and prominence of Catholics on the Supreme Court, in media (Tucker Carlson's new media presence was discussed on dKos yesterday but before him Rove worked with Michael Novak etc. ) So like many who publicly promote "family values" Rove came to be  hailed by the orthodox as a kind of "saint" for taking the anti-abortion fight to the public forum and making it a GOP policy plank. Don't forget the controversy at Notre Dame over inviting Obama to speak at commencement. Obama hadn't even held office and he was already being painted by Rove's acolyte's in the Church as  the "... most pro-abortion president"  ever. As a candidate Obama became responsible for millions of abortions in the minds of these orthodox Catholics.

        Hudson’s circle of conservative Catholics diminished the authority of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops as the conduit between the Church and the government. “If you wanted to get something to the top inner circles of the White House from a Catholic perspective, you could contact Deal Hudson and it was delivered,” William Donohue, the president of the conservative Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, has said. Diminished, too, was the bishops’ more liberal instruction to the faithful regarding their votes, a construct called “a consistent ethic of life.” In choosing a political candidate, the bishops advised their parishioners, they should consider hot-button issues like abortion as being just part of the spectrum of issues that are central to Catholic social teaching, alongside opposition to the death penalty, warfare, and poverty. By 2004, some JPII bishops were positing that John Kerry, a pro-choice Catholic, should be denied Communion, and had even suggested that casting a vote for him might be a sin.

        So maybe my reference was a bit obscure to some here.

        Incidentally former member of the Republican National Committee, former Fordam Professor Deal Hudson was neutralized in 2004 by the publication of details about his own moral failings in scandal. For one interesting commentary on it see: New Oxford Review: The Crisis at Crisis Magazine Part II

        The three marriages and divorces weren't what did in this convert to Catholicism. It was his sexual harassment of a student. Here's the original Nathional Catholic Reporter article with all the gritty details: The Real Deal: How a Philosophy Professor With a Checkered Past Became the Most Influential Catholic Layman in George W. Bush's Washington By Joe Feuerherd He invited an underage female student he knew to be a ward of the court out for a night of drinking.

        The group left the bar around midnight.

        Arms locked, drunk and staggering, they dispersed. Hudson and Poppas took a cab to the Metro North train station, headed, she thought, back to Fordham.

        "I was completely in Dr. Hudson's hands," recalled Poppas. "Not only was I unable to stand up, I had no idea as to how to get home."

        In the taxi "Dr. Hudson began pulling me close," according to Poppas.

        "On the train, he began to feel my breasts outside my sweater and coat. We missed the Fordham stop (I'm not sure whether on purpose or not). We went to his house, he put me in his car, and he went up to tell his wife he was bringing a student back to Fordham."

        Once in the car, said Poppas, "Dr. Hudson told me to lay my head on his lap, suggesting fellatio when he unzipped his zipper. I did both. I sat up and said 'Hold on a second, wait just a minute…' He replied 'Yes, let's wait till we get to my office.'"

        At Fordham, "He took me into his office, laid his long coat down, and laid me down on top of it. He began touching me, unzipping my jeans and pulling up my shirt. I was just glad to be laying down, I could barely feel my body."

        Hudson performed a sexual act on Poppas. He asked her to reciprocate, which she did. "Then he took me to Sesqui, my dorm," recalled Poppas.

    •  I don't think Rove is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pine

      Catholic but anyway to get that Catholic dig in...

    •  If he's a saint (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kestrel, paul2port, Leap Year

      then I'm the pope.

      To love America is to hate the GOP.

      by HawkRock33 on Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 08:15:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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