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View Diary: Ralph Nader was Right. (204 comments)

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  •  Addendum (3.62)
    And just what is it that Nader stands for?  He's spent the last decade and a half as a wealthy, semi-retired crank who hibernates for three years and expends his stored up energy on increasingly desultory runs for the Presidency.  The last one amounted to a series of lawsuits over whether his GOP-collected ballot petitions were bogus or not.  If he isn't going to do anything to advance a political movement in the interim, I refuse to take him seriously as either a political leader or a spokesman.

    In a democracy, the people generally get the government they deserve - tant pis.

    by JJB on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:03:43 AM PST

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    •  Agreed (4.00)
      I wouldn't elect him dog catcher at this point.

      But that doesn't mean his analysis of issues doesn't occasionally hit a home run.  (That's a nod to the seeker of sports analogies.  LOL)

    •  I should clarify (none)
      Ralph Nader was right when he says that the parties stand for nothing.

      When the revolution comes, Republicans will be a good source of protein.

      by Delaware Dem on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:07:28 AM PST

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      •  But Wrong When He Extrapolates Out... (4.00)
        ...that the members and candidate aligned with those parties stand for nothing.

        I like the way you're making the distinction, and it's one I've previously made, but in a different way.  The parties, other than the quadrennial platforms, don't stand for anything, but they are forums and institutions where people hash our different ideas, strategies, priorities, goals, etc.  Some gain preemininance, others are rejected or take on only minor status.  But the individuals aren't empty vessels.  

        •  Exactly (none)
          The parties are institutions.  As such they do not stand for anything in and of themselves, and further, they do in fact have a "duopoly" on the political process.   Individuals with ideas are what win the elections, and thus what cause the parties to vascillate between different positions.

          When the revolution comes, Republicans will be a good source of protein.

          by Delaware Dem on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:40:37 AM PST

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          •  Parties are made up of individuals (4.00)
            But sometimes the individuals with the good ideas don't get a hearing. This can be because of the party's image, but it can also be because they are shut out by the people with no ideas. The mainstream Democratic Party individuals exchange good ideas for no ideas, or stealing the other party's, in the way they think about elections. Kerry had good ideas, but the mainstream party did not press to have them discussed.

            "She is a tree of life to those who cling to her; her supporters are praiseworthy."--King Shlomo "We make it a point of honor to be affirmers."--Nietzsche

            by 4jkb4ia on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 10:22:40 AM PST

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        •  And Also wrong when (3.75)
          Nader said that there was No Difference between the two parties. That's where I really fault Nader. There are real differences, even if they're both just trying to win elections.

          If parties weren't trying to win elections, then they wouldn't be political parties at all.

          Nader's point that there is more to politics than winning elections is well taken, however.

          •  Not to put too fine a point on it ... (3.66)
            ... but Ralph Nader should burn in his own particular corner of hell for his damnable lie of 2000: that there was no discernable difference between GW Bush and Albert Gore.  From environmental protection (just gutted some more in the stealth Christmas Eve announcement regarding national forests) to federal judges (Bush will once again try to ram through the 20 unacceptable extremists who were rejected the first time) to major issues of war and peace, there were dozens of HUGE differences between the two candidates ... and Nader's Lie continues to reverberate hollowly more than four years later.

            I will never utter the phrase "Nader was right" about anything!

            •  No Bush-Gore difference (none)
              We know this now. However, at least one debate encouraged us not to think about Bush and Gore as people with policies of their own, but people who were mouthpieces for the most general positions of their party. Gore came out with few identifiably liberal positions and picked Lieberman as VP, which signalled a "censorship ticket". (Even though this pick gave me great, great pride). This last decision made sure I could not hold my nose, and I voted for Nader. B"H it didn't make any difference. (Bush carried Missouri comfortably). I would not vote for Nader for president again for a fortune.

              "She is a tree of life to those who cling to her; her supporters are praiseworthy."--King Shlomo "We make it a point of honor to be affirmers."--Nietzsche

              by 4jkb4ia on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 10:51:23 AM PST

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              •  I really don't want to belabor this ... (none)
                ... or be a pompous windbag about it, but -- I'm sorry -- we don't just know this now.  We knew it on Election Day, 2000, that the gulf between Gore and Bush was immense, that one of them was bright, articulate, funny, caring, and the bearer of a grand tradition of looking out for others in the community of people and of nations, and the other was a slow-witted, vapid, incurious, mean-spirited sloth who had never had an original thought beyond continuing to line the pockets of his fellow gilt-plated country-clubbers.  It was more than clear then, and the damnable lie that Nader peddled and his followers bought was shameful then, and it's been tragic ever since.

                Nader was and remains a self-centered putz.  As Tony Soprano would say, "End of story!"

                •  In those terms, yes (none)
                  I agree--I did not believe that any thinking person could vote for Bush in that election. My friend put it more strongly: "I would vote for Bush if a comet was going to hit the earth before he could ever be inaugurated."

                  "She is a tree of life to those who cling to her; her supporters are praiseworthy."--King Shlomo "We make it a point of honor to be affirmers."--Nietzsche

                  by 4jkb4ia on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 05:44:14 PM PST

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            •  Gore was punished for Clinton (4.00)
              On both sides. Republicans punished Gore because of Monicagate. Nader voters punished Gore because Clinton was more conservative than they wanted.

              "She is a tree of life to those who cling to her; her supporters are praiseworthy."--King Shlomo "We make it a point of honor to be affirmers."--Nietzsche

              by 4jkb4ia on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 10:57:25 AM PST

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            •  I'm with you (none)
              About Ralph, but in the name of my own honesty, I will admit that he said a few things that needed saying, just not in the best forum (i.e. as a spoiler).
    •  Nader is always active (none)
      you just do not have access to him.  
      No media covers him because he is trying to destroy the media as we know it.
      He does not begin campaigning Jan. 21, he works.  Common Dreams, Public Citizen, Citizen works, these are quality institutions that you all should check out and support.

      He might not make a good candidate, but his institutions are pushing lots of real Democratic core issues.

      Save your venom for the DLC.  They are the people that are causing Dems elections.

      so i said,"Washington's groovy(laughs). That's what i said. And it is... for Romans"

      by k9disc on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 01:44:33 PM PST

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