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View Diary: Holder/DoJ Cover-up on Torture Memos Investigation: Who is David Margolis? (358 comments)

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  •  Ultimately if anyone is tortured as a result (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, TracieLynn, triv33, lightfoot

    of Presidential decree, it will be because Obama wimped out and refused to enforce the law. Whether he refuses to change precedent now or in the next term should he be reelected, without justice being served the potential for out of control Executives is higher because Obama refused to do his duty, not because people chose not to vote for him for not doing his duty.

    A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

    by nippersdad on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 10:14:13 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Americans like you don't get to shunt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      magurakurin, soothsayer99

      off all the weight of their moral failings on Obama and call it a day. If you didn't die to stop Bush, you own part of it. We all do. You don't get to just put it all on Obama and wash your hands clean as an American. You still have obligations to make up for what happened, and part of your obligation is to be a realist. Because real people are dying.

      You have an obligation to lessen the suffering of the people who actually have to deal with this stuff.

      You live your comfy American life with your comfy American morality and don't even stop to wonder whether the innocent people being tortured would rather be in indefinite isolation or indefinite isolation and waterboarded 80 times.

      Yeah, so Obama should have prosecuted Bush and Cheney for crimes against humanity. We all know it, and not one of us actually ever really believed it would happen. Why? Because we're realists and we know what America is.

      But Americans like you need to take a minute and stop and ask a few people overseas whether they want you to abandon Obama or suck it up and support him with all your might. Because the people who actually suffer as a result of American policy don't give a shit about your progressive liberal politics or your personal moral values as an American. Your American morality means shit to them at this point. They just want you to work your ass off to make sure the least insane person possible is living in the White House.

      And you owe them that, for all the luxuries you take for granted in this country that people overseas suffer so you can have... you owe them your rabid support of Barack Obama.

      •  I am an American and I owe Obama nothing. (8+ / 0-)

        He is a public servant, his duty is to fulfill the terms of his office. If he chooses not to do so that is credible reason to replace him. If Obama elects not to enforce the terms of the treaties to which we are liable, as with the Geneva Accords, he is, by the terms of the treaty, considered a war criminal himself; his choice, not mine. I do not vote for war criminals, for they tend to breed yet more.

        Your situational ethics may be sufficient for you, but they lack a certain rule of law that purists of my stripe consider mandatory lest we have yet more blood on our hands in the future. Rabid support of anyone is, by definition, ill judged insofar as it lacks any means of accountability. Accountability is as important as comfort, more so in fact, for comfort of any sort often depends upon it.

        A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

        by nippersdad on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 10:48:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You owe Obama your support because (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          soothsayer99

          you owe it to powerless people worldwide to support him.

          You don't owe it to him because he's president or because he's a Democrat. If America was as powerless as New Zealand I wouldn't give a damn how you vote and nobody else would either.

          But this is America, and as a nerfy comfortable American with the right values, you owe it to the powerless to be reality based and to vote for the candidate who will reduce their suffering.

          It's the very least you owe them for living a life of toil so you can be comfortable, free, happy, and surrounded by cheap food, plentiful water, goods, and services.

          All the blah blah from you will never erase the undeniable fact that the world rejoiced when Obama won because it meant Americans were showing some sense.

          They don't care about Appendix M. They don't care about your American morality or your American version of law. All they care about is that they aren't suffering as much as they were when Republicans were in charge. Would they like to see Appendix M go away? Yes. Would they like liberals to withhold our support of Obama because of it? No way. That would seem insane to them, because it is insane.

          And you don't have the right to put your comfy American values about the rule of law or any of that over the reality that supporting Obama comes first and foremost, so long as he's the Democratic nominee and so long as the Republican nominee is more destructive.

          That's the bottom line. All the stuff about the rule of law is correct, and we should fight to get Appendix M revoked, but never at a cost where it means Obama is put in danger of not winning re-election. Never that, because that is immoral in America 2010 when we're hearing what Republicans would do if they won back the presidency.

          •  You have me wondering if your issue (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheMomCat, TracieLynn, triv33, JesseCW

            lies as much with Republicans as with those Democrats who put these powerless people in sweat shops as a result of neoliberal trade policy in the first place. It was not a Reagan or a Bush that pushed NAFTA and its other clones. It would be well for you to remember that. It would also be well for you to remember that at one time the Democratic Party was willing to put Joe Lieberman a heartbeat away from the Presidency. If he isn't every bit as bad as a McCain or a Bush as regards NeoCon foreign policy, it is not for want of trying.

            Republicans are not solely to blame for your pain, and that is the fault of Democrats who lack the scruples to vote their consciences and, ultimately, their own best interests.

            A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

            by nippersdad on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 11:22:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Clinton was the best Republican president (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              soothsayer99

              we've had.

              Does that tell you what I think of DLC'ers.

              Yeah, they suck.

              Do they suck as much as Republicans? Not quite. It's close, but no... honestly, no.

              Would people overseas prefer Clinton to McCain? Of course they would. They know better. They see it so much clearer than most Americans, I guess because they're the ones who really suffer the consequences, while Americans still have the luxury of worrying more about who won American Idol.

              The morality of this is clear. You know it as well as I do. We can argue about it all day long and clear up points you already knew the answers to, but in the end, we both know what is right and wrong in these decisions.

              •  What I know is that those who refuse to benefit (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheMomCat, TracieLynn

                from the lessons of history are destined to repeat them. What I know is that organisms exist to reproduce themselves. Those who unfailingly support detrimental  organisms have no call to bitch when history repeats itself and the organism one has thoughtlessly abetted does yet more damage to itself and others.

                A Republican is someone who can't enjoy his privileged position unless he is certain that somewhere, someone is in excruciating agony. I Love OCD

                by nippersdad on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 11:33:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's all nice and abstract (0+ / 0-)

                  while real people are dying as a direct result of American voters.

                  What I know is that your arguments are far too ephemeral and metaphorical, and that tells me you aren't able to discuss this in terms of the real world effects of not supporting Obama in 2012, and of course there are reasons why. An argument against it is untenable, and underneath all the metaphors, you know it.

                  If America didn't learn from Bush, they aren't going to learn from whatever Republican replaces Obama. There isn't some magical threshold beyond which Americans will be shocked into not supporting conservatives or moderates. That's not who Americans are.

                  And in the meantime, you owe it to real people to be a hell of a lot more reality based when it comes to voting and the real world impact of your voting choices.

                  •  This is professional trolling (5+ / 0-)

                    "Don't rock the boat, you have to keep the world safe from Republicans."

                    Except the best way to keep the world safe from imperial abuse is to make sure there are strong punishments to act as deterrents to these types of actions. As it stands, all they have to worry about is losing elections, and as it is Bush had his two terms, he and his team get away untouched.

                    Also, lets not overstate just how much better for the world a Democratic administration is. You think all those women and children getting killed in predator drone attacks in Af/Pak are grateful the Dems are on the remote control?

                    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

                    by Grassee on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 05:50:42 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, (0+ / 0-)

                      to the point that my Hide finger is twitching.

                      The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. - 9th Amendment

                      by TracieLynn on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 06:05:08 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Professional? Check this out: (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      nippersdad

                      Does This Explain a Lot?

                      You think maybe Cass & Co. are sending people over here?

                      "When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done." -- J. M. Keynes

                      by goinsouth on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 09:08:19 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  No, the best way to protect the world (0+ / 0-)

                      is to be reality based and do the best that we can with America.

                      That means supporting Obama and making sure he gets re-elected. Everything else is intellectual masturbation.

                      Ask the powerless overseas what they want you to do, cause withholding your vote from Obama aint on the list.

                      •  Trolls stay on message (0+ / 0-)

                        That's the real tell. They will the make the same basic two or three points over and over. In this case:

                        1. The GOP is worse.
                        1. The people of the world need Obama.
                        1. Opposition to Obama's policies is an effete intellectual affectation by out of touch and callous middle class leftists.

                        I've noticed point number 3 in particular to be the STANDARD counterargument to criticisms. Sometimes racial insensitivity is also thrown in. Classic divide and rule.

                        It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

                        by Grassee on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 11:42:11 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Calling people trolls (0+ / 0-)

                          won't change the fact that you don't have a moral leg to stand on if you're not voting for Obama.

                          People all over the world look at Americans like you, who make these abstract idealistic decisions about who to support and not, and that's why they hate you.

                          And they're right to. They're dying because of people like you.

              •  Preferences. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                VincaMajor

                Would people overseas prefer Clinton to McCain?

                How about Serbia?  They're big Clinton fans.

                "When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done." -- J. M. Keynes

                by goinsouth on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 09:06:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The vast majority of powerless people (0+ / 0-)

                  (and sensible people) in the world prefer any Democrat to any Republican, because they know better.

                  And so do you, despite your meaningless semantic games.

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