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View Diary: Jane Hamsher & the Big Jerk-Around (277 comments)

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  •  I'm with you on that. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, indubitably

    Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

    by dengre on Mon Jan 18, 2010 at 05:39:20 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  So you endorse (5+ / 0-)

      attacking Jane Hamsher on Wednesday?

      What hap[pened to you, dengre.  She's a minor fucking blogger that influences little.  Do you need the scapegoat also?

      "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

      by TomP on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 07:21:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not Hamsher specifically (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aexia, Newsie8200, indubitably, Onomastic

        but rather I endorse standing up to to the self-destructive circular firing squad that has been hurting a progressive agenda for the last year. I ignored it until it openly embraced and celebrated the conservative movement. I can ignore it no more.

        The conservative message has been Democrats suck, you can not trust them, you can not trust government to be part of a solution and that the only thing you should trust is your anger.

        Many on the left have been delivering this exact same message with just a few modifications. I would put management at FDL and HuffPost in this category as I would put many left leaning pundits. The recapture of the progressive movement by single issue groups is not helpful. It is divisive and it should be challenged. We either figure out how to work together or we will let our infighting give power to the conservative once again. I've seen this happen over and over again in the last 40 years and I'm a bit tired of it.

        If I hear your argument correctly you seem to think that we should not be concerned with so many on the left embracing right-wing talking points to attack any possible progress in Washington. I do not think ignoring this trend is healthy or useful.

        FDL is doing some damage, but it is just a sample of a more disturbing trend. If it was only FDL it could be ignored, but it isn't. I do not feel like letting any possible progress die because some are joining to right to attack all Democrats because they are not pure enough on this or that issue. Tolerating this destructive behaviour is a bad idea IMHO.

        I can not celebrate the circular firing squad and I can not defend it. So yes, on Wednesday I will continue to call out folks who would rather work with Grover Norquist to block change than work with President Obama to get it passed into law.

        But now I have some calls to make.

        Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

        by dengre on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 08:48:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Enjoy attacking (6+ / 0-)

          the left, denegre.  Jane is sideshow and a scapegoat for the failures of your strategy.

          WTF?

          If I hear your argument correctly you seem to think that we should not be concerned with so many on the left embracing right-wing talking points to attack any possible progress in Washington. I do not think ignoring this trend is healthy or useful.

          Keep trashing people.  Keep attacking the "left."

          Strawman bullshit.

          You and your pals destroy so much.  You are the circular firing squad.  Instead of pursiuading people, you attack.  You trash people and then demand they work for you.  

          I give up on you.  Bring on your scapegoating.

          Make your war and drive more Democrats away.

          And add me to your enemies list.  

           

          "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

          by TomP on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 11:23:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Tom, I do not have an enemies list. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Onomastic

            Perhaps my prose when I am angry suffers. I am not attacking "the left", I do have issues with some self-identified progressives who can only attack and have been doing so for months. I do not know how one should respond to their negativity and cynicism. You suggest that I ignore them, but I do not see how that works. Extremes on the left seek an imagined purity paired with a commitment to an inflexible set of tactics. When it looked like they would not get what they wanted, they formed common cause with wing-nuts to kill HCR. It looks like this tactic may be working and I expect that on Wednesday they will double their efforts to kill HCR and increase the attacks on the President,  Democrats in Congress and any effort to pass legislation. I expect that these attacks will just increase their frequency and in their embracing right-wing talking points.

            Perhaps I am wrong about this, but you attack me for being concerned about it as if this is not a problem worth worrying about at all.

            Should one be silent about this? Should we just let this angry left/right alliance grow. Do you think something good will come from this? I do not see how anything positive can come from this endless circle of attack.

            My prose may be sloppy, but I'm advocating for calling it off, but if the FDLs of the world are increasing their attacks pointing the existence of these attacks is not firing back in a circular firing squad (IMHO). It is just pointing out the madness of the situation.

            When I see people embrace wing-nut memes--memes that I've been fighting all my life--as some kind of clever progressive tactic, I find it hard to not point out that this is a very bad idea.

            You attack me without evidence. (Like just who are "my pals" that I've been working with to destroy things and what did I do?) I am left wondering just what the hell you are talking about.

            I am angry to see such a great chance for progress slip through our collective fingers because we do not know how to work together. If you and I can figure this out, perhaps the rest of us can as well. Perhaps you could explain what one should do about this situation. I am frustrated. I guess you are as well.

            My apologies for my frustration and anger. You are my ally and not a foe. We should learn how to sort this out.

            If we are to seize this moment we have to learn how to focus and work together. I will listen if you will explain.

            Be well and cheers

            Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

            by dengre on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 05:12:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  "the FDLs of the world." sigh. (0+ / 0-)

              this rhetoric is a problem.

              facebook pals - disclose! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/14/14153/3569

              by jj24 on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 11:20:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I ask how one should discuss this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                trashablanca

                Is mentioning FDL is off-limits? Is the path they choose and the tactics they embrace beyond reproach?

                I think they are divisive and on the attack. I think this endless attacking is hurting a progressive agenda and using the language of the conservative movement way too often in those attacks. I think it is a problem. If I am wrong, please let me know why what I see as endless attacks are not actually attacks. Please let me know how these tactics are useful for a progressive agenda.

                I think we need to re-learn how to unify, but if one can not even criticize the tactic of progressives using conservative talking points to attack Democrats, then I do not know where to begin a conversation towards unity.

                The management of FDL has embraced the tactic of using conservative talking points to attack Democrats. While they are not the only ones to do this, they are the ones who took this tactic to the extreme of embracing Grover Norquist. I've used the term "FDL" as shorthand for those who embrace conservative talking points to attack Democrats. I can see how that could be misread as not everybody connected to FDL has been embracing this destructive tactic (and I think it is a destructive tactic, if I'm wrong, please let me know why I am wrong and why embracing this tactic is a good thing).

                I think there are many ways to criticize the President and Democrats in Congress and that there are many things they should be criticized for doing or not doing. I just do not think progressives should embrace, use and validate conservative talking points, memes, groups and rhetoric to make these criticisms. That tactic is the source of my problem with FDL and anybody else using it. If my prose is not conveying a focus on criticizing a tactic over individuals then I must apologize for that sloppiness.

                I am trying to separate issues and feelings that have become tangled. I am trying to think this through. I see this tactic as a problem and I think it should be called out as a bad idea. Jane over at FDL has become a champion of this tactic as a smart progressive tactic and strategy for change. I think she is wrong here and I am dismayed that that any criticism of this tactic has become off-limits.

                I am trying to understand this mess. I would like the circular firing squad to be dismantled, but if even discussing that this is happening is wrong then I'm not sure what we should do next.

                Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

                by dengre on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:27:40 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  So you are stopping the firing squad (6+ / 0-)

          by firing at someone?

          I'm sorry, but how does that STOP the firing squad?

        •  how did those calls go? (0+ / 0-)

          if you simply lump the left's message to the democratic party leadership as "similar to the right wing", you are in trouble.

          oh well - the proof is in the election.  today, new jersey governorship, and upcoming.  the extent to which i am willing to argue and plead with you and people like you to try to understand what is wrong here inside this party - is dwindling, and contingent upon your waking the fuck up and appear to start to "get it."

          facebook pals - disclose! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/14/14153/3569

          by jj24 on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 11:19:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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