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View Diary: Jane Hamsher & the Big Jerk-Around (277 comments)

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  •  Well ... (6+ / 0-)

    ... that's what you do, I'll agree.

    Except you use all sorts of fake ethos to cover it up -- it does come through, though, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

    You're happy being strident when you believe your side is winning.  It's only when you see your control is slipping that all of a sudden you're so concerned about "stridency" and comity.

    Oh but I'm just part of the "authoritarian left," what do I know.

    Gag.

    Oh and btw, still stalking, I see.  Yeah, I know, just a coincidence and you're just expressing "disagreement."  Uh huh.

    •  You seem to be implying (0+ / 0-)

      that winning means having control...over who, or what?

      Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by NLinStPaul on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 04:33:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You say: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        conchita, willibro

        ... this kind of battle is such a waste of time for everyone. Yes, people just dig their heels in, get more strident, and cling to some kind of fantasy that inflicting pain on the other side will help them win something

        I am saying you would do well to look at your own behavior to see how you are contributing to this dynamic.

        Look at your own ratings and see how often you hide rate folks.  Look at how often you suggest folks leave a diary because you have decided they aren't acting in an acceptable fashion.

        You can successfully convince folks who don't know you that you're sincere in trying to change this dynamic.

        Those who have experienced your endless tapdancing when folks don't allow you control of the conversation will not be as credulous.

        Good luck in your mission, NL.

        •  Do you have an answer (0+ / 0-)

          to my question? Who/what does "winning" give you control over?

          Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by NLinStPaul on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 08:02:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not the one ... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            conchita, willibro

            ... into either winning or control.

            To even think that I could explain to someone as authoritarian as you how I view politics is a futile endeavor.

            You're the one who's talking about winning and making the claim that winning is a problem in the dynamics of our political discourse.

            to some kind of fantasy that inflicting pain on the other side will help them win something

            You should answer that question for yourself seeing as you're making the claim.  And you should take a look at your own behavior in feeding the very dynamic you claim to be against.

            •  For the record... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              conchita

              it was your original statement I was responding to. I agreed.

              It's about the battle here at Daily Kos where the anti-FDLers failed to win using the power politics of personal destruction.

              and

              You're happy being strident when you believe your side is winning.  It's only when you see your control is slipping that all of a sudden you're so concerned about "stridency" and comity.

              I just thought I'd take a stab at actual conversation since what you said so closely resembles something I just said yesterday.

              I'm working as hard as I can on talking care of myself and the role I've played. I'm done battling you or anyone else on a personal level. I suspect that the political disagreements will continue, but agree with what you said, the personal destruction doesn't move anyone and from what I see, no one "wins."

              Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

              by NLinStPaul on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 08:43:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  They failed to win ... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                catnip, conchita, willibro

                ... the shutting down of FDL as a credible blog.

                They failed to win kos removing FDL from the blogroll.

                They failed to win permanently smearing the entire FDL website beause of disagreement on policy with one blogger at the website and they failed to win our FAQ listing FDL as a non-credible source so folks can hide rate or otherwise officially claim other posters have no credibility citing FDL.

                That was what they wanted to win.  They wanted to control how folks viewed FDL -- not just Jane Hamsher but Emptywheel, Jon Walker, an entire community.

                They lost that battle.  Even folks who can't stand Jane or FDL had no stomach for this particular political tactic.

                You contributed to their side in that battle.  Not everyone was obviously "strident" but there was a group - now exposed - who coordinated attacks on FDL posters, coined terms such as "firebaggers," etc.  Those folks were joined by those who legitimately were disappointed with Jane and FDL, but the strident folks were much louder (something I have no problem with) and lied (something I have a big problem with).

                What our side won -- at least for the moment, as things change so rapidly -- was the right to make up our own minds about what others write instead of someone else making up our minds for us by smearing character rather than talking about ideas and policy.

                Please don't tell me you're done battling.  I saw your recent comment linking to DD as the root of all evil (figuratively speaking).  I'm an admin. there btw, and I agree 100% with what buhdy wrote in that essay about Cedwyn.

                And as far as personal destruction not "moving anyone," that is not its purpose.  Very often that political tactic "wins" and afterwards indeed convinces folks to go against their own interest.  But the purpose is power.

              •  P.S.: (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                conchita, willibro, RiaD

                What I am referring to is your characterization of buhdy:

                Its clear to me that some people are obsessed with controlling this site. Of course, they don't - and it seems to drive them to idiocy. Playing into their game is not something I'm interested in doing. I happen to think there are much more important things to do with our time.

                Unbelievable hypocrisy considering the rest of that thread.

                •  Its clear that you have no (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Deoliver47

                  idea what I was saying in that comment...totally misconstrued. My point actually had very little to do with buhdy.

                  And all the stuff in your previous comment about taking down FDL...you may very well be accurate. Its not something I was ever interested and/or involved with. Watching the futility of the battle - on both sides - is actually where I'm learning something (and by the way, THAT was my point in the comment you just quoted).

                  Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                  by NLinStPaul on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 10:40:05 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    conchita, willibro

                    If you were referring to Cedwyn, then I did misconstrue it.

                    As far as the FDL battle, you contributed a great deal to that, as well as the centrist/left divide.

                    Go look at your comment to mahakali overdrive, the one where you're "musing" about the "authoritarian left."  That led directly to one of the most divisive memes in her GBCW.

                    That is only one example.

                    Doesn't matter what your intention was.  Your lack of awareness fed that battle.

                    Some battles are worth fighting.  Others are not.  You seem to have a great deal of difficulty making that differentiation.

                    •  And you also have (0+ / 0-)

                      no idea who/what I was referring to in my comment about the "authoritarian left." It wasn't even a response to MO.

                      So I have to wonder who's intention/awareness is involved here.

                      Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                      by NLinStPaul on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 10:55:13 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Get a clue. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        conchita, willibro

                        I said you had no awareness of what you were doing.  I'm no mind reader as to intention and that's not the point.

                        Mahakali responded to your comment and said how interesting that was, should be explored.

                        The very next day she used it as a meme against the left.

                        You won't get it, I know.  But then you need to control at all costs.

                        Really, NL, you can just go to hell.

                        •  What is it (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          conchita, kj in missouri

                          I'm supposed to "get." That its now my responsibility to manage how other people use my words? Really? And so I suppose that I'm also responsible for how everyone uses that term?

                          I've made my intention about all of this as clear as possible from my first comment...I'm not condoning the battle/tactics of either side. I'm saying its a game that's easy to get sucked into and nobody wins.  

                          Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                          by NLinStPaul on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 11:21:45 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  poking in to say "hi." :-) (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            NLinStPaul

                            (figuratively poking, of course)  @;-)

                            i want to remind you that back in a day (not the day, a day, sadly) a huge, huge part of why i logged back in to surf the tubes were because comments- and diaries- written by you, NL, were well worth my time to explore.

                            "call and response"
                             remember when we used that term to describe the movement anchored and forwarded?

                            and, because you haven't cared that i search for your name to find interesting diaries written by people equally interesting, intelligent, logical and compassionate, i've discovered writers here at dKos that i hope to read for years.

                            so, you know, in the middle of this, remember:  words matter- actions matter; and you do good with both.   :-)

                            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                            by kj in missouri on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 05:19:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I'd just like to add (0+ / 0-)

                          that this afternoon I had a minute to re-read this conversation. When I look at the overall message, its interesting to me that you seemed so intent on making the conversation personal - all about me and my faults.

                          The truth is, I could have done the same thing back and this conversation would have mirrored the battle we're talking about.

                          Do you really want to end the battle of personal destruction NPK? You give mixed messages because you seem to indicate that the "other side" should stop, but you're perfectly fine with continuing.

                          I'm saying its not a battle I'm interested in spending any time waging. There are other more important things to do. Staying stuck in this one is what feels like hell to me.  

                          Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                          by NLinStPaul on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 02:12:29 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  P.S.: (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    conchita, RiaD

                    I looked at the continuation of that thread, the characterizaton of "docudummies" that you accepted as true along with the characterization of the site.

                    Sorry, I just don't believe you.

                    I'm done with you, NL ... going back to ignoring.

    •  Meteor Blades (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kj in missouri

      This comment appears to violate the rule on accusations of stalking:

      Stalking is defined as having 3 requirements:

        (1) On multiple occasions, one or more commenters follow a community member into diary threads; and,

        (2) The commenter(s) engage in the conduct of posting comments that are comprised of false information, personal attacks, lies, rumors, or implied/express disclosure of private information; and

        (3) The commenter(s) engages in this conduct with the intent to harass, harm, humiliate, frighten or intimidate another poster. This intent may be inferred from the number of times that the commenter follows a community member on the boards and/or the nature of the comments posted.

        Stalking does not include the mere expression of disagreement, seeking out diaries or comments of favorite diarists or simply frequent interaction on the boards [emphasis added].

        Before calling someone a stalker or tossing HRs at a person you think is a stalker, community members should post a comment explaining what conduct and/or statements constitutes the stalking with a link to relevant evidence so that admins and the community have a record to review.

        Posters should not recommend a comment calling someone a stalker or HR'd for stalking simply because of friendships but should review the evidence provided in the comment to reach their own independent conclusions.

      A ruling would be appreciated, as I recall this poster making numerous accusations of stalking against NLinStPaul and I would really prefer to not see a return to that.

      FDL = The Teabagger wing of the Democratic Party

      by indubitably on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 04:54:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  that explains so much!!! (0+ / 0-)

      Oh but I'm just part of the "authoritarian left," what do I know.

      thanks for clearing that up, NPK.  '-)

      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

      by kj in missouri on Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 05:27:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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