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View Diary: For the culture warrior (231 comments)

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  •  he does have a point (none)
    Unfortunately, there is something ugly about both the Swedish court's decision and the opposite, allowing everyone to say whatever they want.  

    The good thing about limiting speech is that it limits the spread of hateful counterproductive invective.  The bad thing is that it forces a definition of bad or hateful speech.  In the current political climate in the U.S. it is conceivable that many of us would be in jail if we had similar laws (because of course the people in power would get to decide what speech is illegal).

    I for one take strong exception to the Swedish decision and very strong exception (obviously) to the flyer included above.

    •  No he doesn't (none)
      I disagree with have hate speech laws as well, but Phelps has no legitimate point.

      Period.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

      by Lestatdelc on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 01:00:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  in retrospect (none)
        you're probably right.  He probably does not take objection to the Swedish decision in the way I mentioned, meaning the free speech reason.

        The rest of what I said whoever, I stand by.  And, for the record, I also don't consider [insert assertion here] followed by "Period." to be a legitimate point.  A better response would have been to say something like what I wrote above.  On the other hand, writing it as you did forced me to do the work, which is probably warranted.

        So, yes, I have probably given Phelps far too much credit.

    •  I suggest you read this (none)
      http://gayspirituality.typepad.com/blog/2004/07/this_makes_me_s.html

      "... Ake Green was actively testing this law. He invited local media to come to his sermon. He knew that he was breaking the law - this is stated in several quotations from himself. He, and an active minor part of the christian movement in Sweden, wants to have an exception from the law - they want to be able to be exckluded from it when preaching. The government and the Swedish parlament does not agree. They clearly state that the freedom from defamation/agitation is more worth than the right to express such defamation/agitation. The right to quote (and discuss) holy writings, such as the Bible or the Koran, is still there and can not be deemed to be defamation/agitation. Ake Green did, however, include several things in his sermon that could neither be deemed as a quotation or a discussion about a quotation from the Bible...."

      •  I read it. (none)
        I agree with the original post.  As far as the comments, one of which you excerpted, my position is summarized in my follow-up comment above.  Put simply, I stand by everything I wrote except that I likely gave Phelps credit where credit was not due.
        •  so much the worse (none)
          The Swedes have outlawed hate-inciting slander against groups as well as individuals.  Ake Green wrongly accused gays of commiting the crimes of pedophilia and intentionally spreading HIV, and for that false accusation he rightfully served a month in jail.
      •  THIS is the key point... (none)
        here:

        Ake Green did, however, include several things in his sermon that could neither be deemed as a quotation or a discussion about a quotation from the Bible....

        Green did what the American Fundie homophobes do when preahing hate ... HE HAD TO MAKE STUFF UP!  There is so little about homosexuality in the bible [at best, 6 passages]  and almost all of those are open to a degree of interpretation. In order to find a 'Christian' justification for homophobia, Green had to inculde non-biblical 'sources' like Family Research Council propaganda, or he had to make up something of his own.

        This is exactly what Phelps and his family [ie - his "church'] do. I would say a statement that says "Thank God these people were brutally killed..." comes pretty close to inciting violence...

        Those who fail to learn from history...are invited to submit an application for a position in the Bush administration.

        by Timoteo on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 03:18:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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