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View Diary: For the culture warrior (231 comments)

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  •  Your point is well-taken... (3.50)
    ...but real Christians don't go in for hate like this. I'm talking about those that actually practice the faith, instead of giving it lip service.
    •  Yeah.... (2.80)
      All 3 of them.

      (I know there are more of you than that, but you don't speak, so I have to listen to all that bullshit coming from the crazies whenever I decide I feel like wearing my Star of David in public.  I feel bad for you, just like I feel bad for the majority of Muslims, but you have to speak up and tell the rest of the world that the crazy ones are not the majority, and that you're just like us - you wish they'd go crawl back under a rock too.  I do it when it comes to Hasids and the ultra-orthodox, now it's your turn.)

      I agree with Spider's assessment of voting.

      by sub version on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 03:24:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are christian groups (4.00)
        actively fighting people like this. It's not sexy though so the media doesnt broadcast it. Just the hatemongers.

        The Democratic party needs to adopt its own moral and values principles (clawed) My other Drunken ravings

        by cdreid on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 04:02:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Every time (3.00)
          Phelps came to my campus, the people counterprotesting him were quite present, usually drowning him out.

          But none of them were Christians.

          It doesn't matter what you say if you can't make yourself heard.

          I agree with Spider's assessment of voting.

          by sub version on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 04:52:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How do you know that none of them (none)
            were Christians?  Did they have signs on them saying, "I am not a Christian?"  
            •  Well (none)
              I don't know they weren't Christians.

              But judging from the sort of hateful crap they were spewing about Christians, I figured it was a safe bet.

              I agree with Spider's assessment of voting.

              by sub version on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 02:52:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Really , did they shout, "PHOOEY ON ALL YOU (none)
                CHRISTIANS?  Or "YOU CHRISTIAN SCUM! YOU CAN TAKE YOUR JESUS AND STUFF HIM!"

                Or were they shouting things like "YOU KNUCKLE DRAGGING MORONS. YOU HATE FILLED FILTH. CRAWL BACK UNDER YOUR FUNDAMENTALIST ROCK OF RAGES."  Something like that?

                I mean, just because one is shouting well deserved insults at people who call themselves Christians doesn't mean that you are specifically insulting Christianity or all Christians.  

                •  It was pretty close to the first (none)
                  Let me clarify - I dislike most of the beliefs of Christianity.  I dislike the beliefs of most Christians, especially the ones who interpret the Bible in anything resembling a literal fashion.

                  But that's their problem, believing something I feel is untrue.  

                  I'm not going to go call them illogical followers of a mishmash of creeds drawn from all conceivable sources who fail to realize or even acknowledge that fact, despite the fact that it is often true.  (And to Christians who actually study your faith and intellectually engage with it, ignore what I have said up to here, I have absolutely no beef with you - we may disagree on truth, but I admire you for trying.)

                  But when the word "Christian" itself becomes a pejorative term, the Phelpses and Falwells of this world have succeeded, and they did so because real, moderate, Christians failed to seperate themselves from the insane ones.  I won't use the term Christian as an insult.  And many of the Phelps counter-protesters did and do, which is a problem, even for someone as agnostic and aspiritual/amystical as I am.  

                  I don't know how far away you are from campus political life, but I lived on a fairly political campus, for 12 years growing up and then another 4 and a half while attending classes there, and have only been gone from it for about a year and a half.  Being a nationally famous university, we attract a lot of attention from a lot of completely insane people - Phelps visits regularly, the KKK used to, there are organized Maoist and Communist movements on campus (let me distinguish - Soviet-style Communism, an insane idea, as opposed to the general idea of Communism).  Whether or not you want to be involved in the political discourse, you can't avoid it - it's thrust into classes, it engages you as you walk by it occuring on campus, it is unavoidable.  And wherever I went, I encountered the problem of people using a description of belief as a term of insult - using Christian, or Jew, or Socialist, or Communist, or Capitalist, or Muslim, as terms of insult.  

                  There are two problems - that of divorcing a descriptor from the things it describes, and that of conflating different things under the same descriptor.  They are essentially two different ways of viewing the same problem.  Divorce of the descriptor from the described allows an easier conflation, in that it tends to lead people not to look at what lies behind a term.  It's a lot easier to hang a blood libel on a Jew when the term "Jew" has already become divorced from Judaism in the head of the listener.  It's a lot easier to hang an association of "terrorist" on a Muslim when the listener doesn't know anything about Islam.  The related problem, that of conflation, is another way of divorcing the descriptor from meaning, this time by expanding the range of the meaning to the point where it becomes so non-specific as to be useless.  Christian is getting to this point, considering the huge gamut of views that all associate themselves with the term - everyone from Catholics to Seventh Day Adventists to Greek Orthodox to snake-handling cults to Phelpsian crazies is a Christian, so what meaning does the term even have?  The only way to recover from massive conflation is to reduce the meaning of the term - Christian, at this point, essentially implies "I believe Christ was the messiah" and that's about it.  The best defense to prevent conflation is what I am requesting - defending the meaning of the descriptive terms before they can be corrupted.

                  A similar situation I run into all the time is with Messianic Jews who don't understand my objection to them calling themself Jewish.  As a Jew, I don't wish to be associated with people who believe Jesus was the messiah, as messianics do.  I believe that the terms need to be seperated, so that it is very clear that people realize that my brand of Judaism (the tradition of Rabbinic Judaism, not a specific branch of it) does not acknowledge a messiah, and that Messianics have no real right to a claim on that term.  It's a relatively restrained example, in that no one is likely to get into a fistfight over it, but it's the same situation.  If you don't point out the differences between you and someone who wants to call themselves by your name, you've lost any reason to believe a bystander will know those differences, or even should.

                  I agree with Spider's assessment of voting.

                  by sub version on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:44:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  This attitude (none)
            is no better than the one you criticize.  It's the same narrow, hateful viewpoint that underlies racism--and every other -ism.

            "It's been headed this way since the World began, when a vicious creature made the jump from Monkey to Man."--Elvis Costello

            by BigOkie on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 08:28:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  For obvious reasons (none)
            I love your sig.

            "You're miserable, edgy, and tired. You're in the perfect mood for journalism."

            by Spider Jerusalem on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 02:05:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I have a feeling (none)
            you dont know many christians. I'm not really one anymore but used to be. Know a LOT of them. Whether you want to believe it or not most of them are the finest people you'll ever meet. Tell me.. would you speak this way about Muslims? About Buddhists? About Jews?????

            The Democratic party needs to adopt its own moral and values principles (clawed) My other Drunken ravings

            by cdreid on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 07:24:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Really? (none)
              I know a lot of em too.  Spent a lot of time around black Southern Baptists while I was in school, due to an internship I had.  Spent a lot of time in Dutch Reform Bible Belt Western Michigan, the South (backwoods Florida), WASPy areas of New York, and the suburbs and neighborhoods of Detroit and Chicago.  I know quite a few Christians, of different faiths, levels of practice, and backgrounds.

              Most of them are just plain people.  A few of them are good people.  A few of them are awful.  Pretty much like anyone else.  That's not the problem.

              The problem is that the just plain people go through their day to day lives.  They act like people.  They don't do anything great, they don't do anything wonderful, but they don't do anything awful either.  And then Fred Phelps comes along, and damns the gays and the Swedes in the name of Jesus.  All that I expect is that the just plain people; hell, even the good ones, even the few good ones, stand up and say "Fred Phelps is a bigoted homophobe who should be ashamed to be alive.  I'm a Christian, and I know Christians, and he's no Christian."  That's it.  But they don't.  Or if they do, they say it so quietly that everyone can overlook them.  That's why I get pissed off.

              And yes, I would (and do) speak this way about Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews, if and when its necessary.  There are some Muslims who do speak out against the extremists who use their religion as a shield for their acts - I admire them.  There are many who don't.  They should.  There are Jews who call out the ultra-orthodox when they act in the name of Judaism and do something evil.  Presumably, there are Buddhists who do awful things in the name of Buddha, though I don't know any offhand.  If there are, shouldn't those who practice Buddhism make the distinction plain?  If a Tibetan Buddhist is killing in the name of Buddha, and the Dalai Lama wasn't pointing out "This isn't Buddhism, this is not right, he is no Buddhist", I damn well would speak that way about the Dalai Lama.

              Let me put it this way - ever had someone from overseas get pissed off at you just because you were an American?  What was the first thing you did?  You pointed out "Hey, I'm different from them.  I don't believe what they believe."

              All I'm asking is that people do that.  Publicly, vocally, visibly.

              I agree with Spider's assessment of voting.

              by sub version on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 03:22:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  give me a break (none)
          yeah, the media gives a negative slant on christians. right.
      •  As a Jew, I'd like to disagree... (3.33)
        Unless you'd like to claim Ariel Sharon, Bibi Netanyahu, Paul Wolfowitz, etc. as true Jews.  Christianity has produced many great people and many awful people.  It is my personal belief that certain people just will end up one way or another, and since Christianity has far more people, it will end up with far more on the good and bad side of the spectrum.  Same with Islam.  When a mainstream Muslim cleric says something about how small a fraction of Islam supports bin Ladenism, I think of the fact that 1% of 1.2 billion people is 12 million people, which would be more radical Muslims than every Jew in the world.  And I'm thinking the percentage is a lot higher.  Jews don't have the same kind of result because there's just so few of us left.

        (Insert Democrat Here) for President in 2008!

        by teenagedallasdeaniac on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 07:19:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did you even read what I posted? (none)
          As I said - I do my part when it comes to calling out the ultra-orthodox crazies as being anything buy Jewish.  I expect the moderates of other religions to do the same.

          All I ask is that, when someone says "X religion says X awful thing", the members of the religion who are, in fact, decent people and don't support X awful thing, make damn sure that their disagreement is public and visible.

          I agree with Spider's assessment of voting.

          by sub version on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 02:56:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's unfair. (none)
        You believe in democracy--and so do rethugs. You believe in the Constitution--and so do rethugs.

        So you obviously believe corporate-coddled, country-invading talibaptist rule is constitutionally supported, because that's what democracy is about, and that's what the Constitution supports.  Right?

        No?  But you support the same Constitution and form of government (democracy) don't you?

        "But sir, we've already lost the dock." A Zion Lieutenant to Commander Lock, The Matrix Revolutions

        by AuntiePeachy on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 09:13:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hah, hah. Funny. (none)
          I believe that most Republicans believe in democracy, the constitution, civil rights and free speech.  I also believe that they don't do anything to divorce themselves from the portion of their party that doesn't.

          I believe that most Democrats believe in tolerance for views they dislike, intelligent economic and foreign policy, and good family values.  I also believe that they don't do anything to divorce themselves from the portion of their party that doesn't.

          I believe that all politicians are liars and thieves who will, given half a chance, bend their constituents over backwards for a two penny campaign donation.  I also believe that people who use terminology like "rethuglicans" deserve it.

          Guess what?  Corporation-coddling, country-invading rule, as you put it, is constitutionally supported (talibaptist may violate the Constitution, though).  I think it's a despicable way to run the country, but there's nothing illegal about it, and democracy doesn't say I get to have it my way all the time.

          But when a Democrat says "Let's kill the brown people", I'm happy to be the first one to say "Kick the bastard out".  I simply ask that others do the same - don't expect people to be intelligent about distinguishing between the mainstream and the extreme of a group, especially one they're unfamiliar with.  Make it easy for them to draw the distinctions.

          I agree with Spider's assessment of voting.

          by sub version on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 03:02:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  weren't the inquisition priests 'real' xtians? (2.50)
      I find such statements as yours absurd and self-serving.  "Practicing the faith" has historically involved great amounts of hatred and cruelty.
      •  Not to mention the crusaders! (4.00)
        I'm really sorry about this, but it pains me that even Christians of good will don't realize how threatening and repulsive this stuff is to non-Christians, and how pervasive it's becoming, a little more "acceptable" all the time.

        The higher comfort level with the blurring of separation of church & state, and with the de facto "Christianness" of the US, is very frightening to those of us of other (or no) faiths. Already my tax dollars are being used to fund "faith-based" organizations - ALL of which just happen to be Christian. Picture yourself as a citizen of a non-Christian country where the same was being done to you.

        As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

        by sidnora on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 06:06:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Separation (4.00)
          of business and Christianity.  Just in the last 5 days I have heard of 2 savings and loan businesses whose owners considered these businesses their "church."  

          One of them was destroyed by a gas leak and 3 women employees were killed.  the owner said that he prayed with all his employess all through each work day and prayed with each customer seeking a loan.  He considered it his duty as a Christian to lead all souls to [his, I assume] belief.  

          then just days later I saw a savings and loan named "Thrift Savings for Christians."  I guess he doesn't want any heathens' money.  And that is in the Midwest.

      •  So (none)
        you are saying the Jews have no blood on their hands?  None?  Always the victim, never the persecutor?

        "It's been headed this way since the World began, when a vicious creature made the jump from Monkey to Man."--Elvis Costello

        by BigOkie on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 08:31:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah right. (none)
      real Christians don't go in for hate like this. I'm talking about those that actually practice the faith, instead of giving it lip service.

      Get your own religion straight before claiming that you're practicing the "true" version of it.

      "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -attributed to  a supposedly existant individual supposedly named "Jesus", in Matthew 10:34

      And just open the Old Testament to a random page for several examples of your (supposed) god being hateful, spiteful, cruel, malicious, petty, and any other evil-related word that you can think of.

      •  Look again... (none)
        "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34

        Jesus' message was NOT that his purpose was to create war instead of peace.  It was his (correct) prediction that his teachings would divide humanity, and these divisons would lead to conflicts, whether it be Christians vs. non-Christians, Catholics vs. Orthodox vs. Protestants, Gnostics vs. Literalists, etc.  He preached love, tolerance, and fellowship, but he knew very few would truly listen.

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