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View Diary: 123 civilians, 3 al Qaeda DRONED in January, 17 more dead today (111 comments)

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  •  Seems liek the area was hit hard today (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BarackStarObama, IowaPopulist

    There was also the bombing the Pakistan Taliban did to the girls school.  I'm at a loss why they're attacking they're own people, especially if it's in reply to the US attacks.  Any thoughts?

    Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

    by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:20:56 PM PST

    •  Is that the bombing... (0+ / 0-)

      that killed 3 US soldiers in Pakistan?  

      •  yes and several school girls (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IowaPopulist

        and severely injured about 60 others.

        http://english.aljazeera.net/...

        Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

        by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:27:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fairleft2

          do you think that might have had something to do with it?

          •  why did they set the bombs so close to school (0+ / 0-)

            they didn't have to do that.

            And the Taliban has a history of targeting schools.

            Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

            by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:43:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Indeed (0+ / 0-)

              But you pretended bafflement as to how that could constitute retaliation for the US drone attacks.  However, the fact that they killed 3 US soldiers rather explains that point, no?

              •  I am baffled by why they target their own people (0+ / 0-)

                you never answered it.  If their aim was to target US soldiers they could have done that not within school proximity.  So I am baffled by why they would set it up that way.  A lot more school girls were harmed than soldiers.

                Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:48:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm pretty sure they're human (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    allenjo

                    but I don't understand what they're doing.  They're trying to terrorize and suppress the population as much as anyone else for power.  

                    Maybe some are ideologues?  Who truly despise education for women?  

                    I donno, I'm really asking for your thoughts on the matter.

                    Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                    by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:59:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Isn't this what the USA is doing? (0+ / 0-)

                      terrorize and suppress the population as much as anyone else for power.

                       

                      "We are tired of war," he said. "We don't want it anymore."

                      by allenjo on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:07:39 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Agreed mostly, but recently there have been (0+ / 0-)

                        talks about Taliban cooperation and how they're good for the region, but they're just as bad as everyone else.  I'm not sure how they're protecting anyone, they're not just being freedom fighters.

                        Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                        by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:10:55 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Reasons? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      fairleft2

                      The reasons are various.  The key ones to my mind are:

                      1. Simple conservatism and tribalism: they see female education as destroying the old ways and drawing people into a new system.
                      1. Proof of their power: proof that no changes can be made to society with their say-so.
                      1. Destroying American influence: schools and public works are a way of building support.  By destroying them, they prevent the US from gaining a foothold (and leave themselves as the only party that can provide community service)
                      1. Killing Americans (as was done today) and they sympathizers, and warning others against working with Americans (a shorter version of this might be "terror").  
                      •  But they aren't building support (0+ / 0-)

                        with this method.  There are many mixed reports of whether areas are pro or anti - Taliban.  

                        However, they are causing as many citizen deaths as anyone else.  

                        You would think it would be completely counter-productive, especially to specifically target their neighbors children.

                        I can see the working with Americans angle, but not all the schools targeted are built with the support of Americans.  

                        And female education hasn't always been seen as a bad thing in the area.  

                        Is this the fate of this country, to leave the US war behind only to be handed over to people who still terrorize them?

                        Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                        by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:17:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          fairleft2

                          It certainly does cost them some support.  But I imagine there are a number of conservatives in the region greatly afraid of change, and this builds support with them.

                          It's a complex calculus.  Some may love the Taliban.  Some may simply fear them.  Some may simply hate outsiders who only show up to drop bombs in the name of righteousness.  

                          Historically, it's not uncommon for a resistance movement to destroy the structures of the occupying power, even if those structures are beneficial.

                          •  Agree with all that (0+ / 0-)

                            but it's not only US built structures that they attack.  It seems to be somewhat of a tearing down of any culture to replace it with their own to gain more power.  Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but from an outsiders perspective, that's what it seems like.

                            Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                            by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:54:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Who cares, but here are three possibilities: (0+ / 0-)

                      The Taliban places a low value on civilian lives because

                      1. they think it's necessary (pretty stupid to stand out in an open field and say, 'fight me here, America, where there are no civilians around')

                      and/or

                      1. avoiding civilian collateral damage has less importance than accomplishing the 'great' goals of expelling the U.S. and establishing an extremely conservative Islamic regime.

                      and/or

                      1. scaring civilians away from cooperating with the neocolonial power is one of the Taliban's goals.
                      •  Here's the reason I care (0+ / 0-)

                        because there are talks about negotiating with the Taliban.  While I agree we need to get out and we are not avoiding civilians nearly enough, I'm worried about who the country will be handed over to.  I don't think that 1 and 2 are the reason because too often civilians are attacked without targeting any soldiers or anything constructed with funds.  

                        3 is what I think is most likely but also it serves to suppress the population and force them to conform to 'Taliban standards'  

                        Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                        by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:28:24 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You're sure it's 3? Why didn't you just say so? (0+ / 0-)

                          No one has any illusions that the Taliban are nice guys. But no one has any illusions that the war against them is a failure. If negotiations led to peace (PEACE!) and a coalition government in which the Taliban compromised on some of its worst positions, and most Afghans supported that compromise, it would be grossly morally wrong for the U.S. to stand in the way of that. But that is exactly what U.S. Dem/Repub policy is right now. We have an extreme policy against any and all negotiations with the Taliban leadership, I guess because the military-industrial complex thrives on permanent war and AfPak is the ongoing war right now.

                •  Again (0+ / 0-)

                  It's well known that they target girls schools for a variety of reasons, all of them vicous.  However, that does not explain why you pretend not to understand how they could blow up US troops.  

                  •  Hmmm...this convo isn't going anywhere (0+ / 0-)

                    From my original statement

                    I'm at a loss why they're attacking they're own people

                    The schoolgirls are not collateral damage if they could have easily not placed the bombs near the school and still targeted troops, if that in fact is their goal.  

                    So why target their own population?  

                    Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                    by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:03:56 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  They are bloodthirsty fanatic assholes (0+ / 0-)

      my thought.

      Everything passes, everything changes, just do what you think you should do-B.D

      by defndr on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:28:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah but Christian kings.. (0+ / 0-)

        ..launched crusades in the dark ages, so the Taliban are OK.

        Donk: Poker term referring to someone who pretends to be talented, smart and good at life. Syn.: Poser, faker, wannabe, loser.

        by DonkSlayer on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:31:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  no need for a pissing contest (0+ / 0-)

          Lots of blood-thirsty, power hungry people to go around.  

          The Christian crusades were preceded by a crusade from another region.  Neither was in the right.

          Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

          by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:34:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  They targeted the U.S. soldiers, killing 3 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ohwilleke

      and injuring 2, and the schoolkids were collateral damage, IMHO. You think they were targeting the schoolkids and the U.S. soldiers were collateral damage? The Pakistani resistance to the U.S. war is extremely brutal, and I think they feel that's the way they have to be if they're going to have any chance of success.

      •  I don't think that's right (0+ / 0-)

        they could have set up their bombs away from the schools since they were planted.

        And this isn't the first attack that the Taliban has done on schools, especially girls schools
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

        Eight people died and at least 18 were wounded in the twin blasts at the International Islamic University.

        http://www.nydailynews.com/...

        Militants - who have blown up or burned down more than 170 schools in their campaign - had ordered all girls' schools in the area closed by Jan. 15.

        http://www.dawn.com/...

        The students were going to school in Atmankhel town of Orakzai district when the militants opened fire, killing four boys and wounding six others, said local administration official Asmatullah Khan.

        ‘It appears to be a sectarian attack as the slain students belonged to the minority Shiite sect of Islam,’ he said. ‘The attackers were Taliban.’ Residents said the dead students were all younger than 16, but were not able to give the exact ages of the victims.

        http://www.independent.co.uk/...

        Women's education was banned under the Taliban, and girls' schools are routinely torched or closed in areas where the insurgents hold sway. Prior to the acid attacks, the Taliban had strengthened their grip in the Mirwais area and other districts close to Kandahar and posters had started appearing warning local people not to let their daughters go to school.

        Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

        by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 01:40:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you know why, but are feigning bafflement (0+ / 0-)

          tiresome

          •  What in the world (0+ / 0-)

            are you talking about?

            I didn't say I knew the reason, I do have my guesses but they're just that, and I was looking for other opinions.

            All I did was cite reasons I thought targeting the school was purposeful.  

            And I know they don't agree with girls being educated but if you look in the links or even the quotes I provided they also attack Univerities and boys schools.

            So I am baffled.  How are they not being counter-productive?  The boys school seems like more tribal but in that case their fighting everyone.  Why would there be any Taliban support?

            Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

            by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:32:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You should be telling us why 'they' (0+ / 0-)

              are doing what they're doing, in your humble opinion, rather than pretending you don't have very strong opinions about the topic. No one is arguing with you, but several nice people here have been trying to help you escape your pretend bafflement.

              •  All I did was ask for your opinion (0+ / 0-)

                and I didn't want to confuse it by making it a rebuttal of my opinion.  

                I know of nowhere that says you're not allowed to ask the diarist a question without first giving your own opinions.  My opinions are formed perhaps naively, as I was not even aware of the Pakistani newspaper you cited so I thought I'd ask you a question.  

                Sorry for asking your opinion, didn't realize you would take offense.

                Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

                by bvig on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:51:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  The news reports I saw stated that the presence (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bvig

        of the Americans was actually coincidental.  They were only in the convoy because they were heading to the dedication of another girls' school while passing the one that got destroyed.  The Americans were not the real targets, the school and officials promoting girls' education were.

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