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View Diary: House Dems Find their Wedge, the Ryan Budget Plan (138 comments)

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  •  Dems must go on record against VAT (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RickMassimo, pademocrat, Karl Rover

    Ryan has made this a cornerstone of his program...

    A GOP Road Map for America's Future

    There's still time to rejuvenate our market economy and avoid a European-style welfare state.

    http://online.wsj.com/...

    The proposal eliminates the alternative minimum tax. It promotes saving by eliminating taxes on interest, capital gains, and dividends. It eliminates the death tax. It replaces the corporate income tax—currently the second highest in the industrialized world—with a business consumption tax of 8.5%. This new rate is roughly half the average in the industrialized world and will put American companies and workers in a stronger position to compete in a global economy.

    Unfortunately, a few Dems (Pelosi, E Emanuel, Podesta) have also expressed support for a national sales tax.

    Now is the time to repudiate any attempt at a natoional sales tax.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

    by PatriciaVa on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 01:33:57 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  What do you have against VAT? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RickMassimo, lcdrjsm, sturunner

      Very popular in Europe.

      Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

      by dinotrac on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 01:58:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  VAT is a Regressive Tax (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zeke L, RickMassimo, dewley notid

        The VAT is a very regressive VAT which would negatively impact working and middle-class Americans.

        If Dems want to be relegated to the wilderness for a generation, they will support the VAT.

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

        by PatriciaVa on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:07:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's also very simple, requires no filing, and (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RickMassimo, lcdrjsm, sturunner

          can catch a bigger share of the underground economy than the current income tax.

          In those ways, it's probably better and fairer than the current scheme, which rewards the well-do-to with loopholes that the poor can't afford.

          What does it say that the VAT is most popular in the very countries that progressives try to emulate?

          Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

          by dinotrac on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:18:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Let's talk Trigger (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zeke L, NoMoreLies, RickMassimo, dinotrac

            Dinotrac, you want a VAT in the US, let's talk Gini Coefficient.

            Let's overhaul our fiscal code with the objective of reducing inequality, as measured by the Gini Coefficient.

            Once, and only once, the US achieves the equality of Europe, as measured by the Gini Coefficient, do we trigger a VAT.

            Please note that in a country with the wealth disparity of the US, this may involve some type of wealth (net worth) tax on the very affluent.

            You still want your VAT?

            Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

            by PatriciaVa on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:25:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why do I care about the Gini Coefficient? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RickMassimo, lcdrjsm

              It's hard to know exactly what it means, anyway.

              If one country receives more immigrants than another, it's likely to have a higher index.
              If one country has a younger population than another, it's likely to have a higher index.

              Besides -- which way would a disparity index actually argue when speaking VAT.

              For example -- except for real estate, we tend not to tax wealth in the US.  A VAT could, at least, catch some part of wealth used to purchase goods and services.

              Besides, it's a little strange to complain about regressive taxes when we already apply a large and regressive tax -- more regressive than VAT on low-wage earners: 15.1% in the form of Social Security + Medicare tax.  At least the VAT tax rewards those who scrimp and save a few dollars by leaving those dollars untaxed.

              Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

              by dinotrac on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:37:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'll tell u how - the 170K speeding ticket (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NoMoreLies, RickMassimo, dinotrac

                Use the Fiscal Code to moderate the disparity in wealth.

                How?

                Use tax policy to redistribute wealth.

                Right now, our Gini Coefficient is about 47.

                In the EU, it's about 31.

                Let's introduce more progressive user fees to bridge the gap.  In Finland, you get stopped for speeding, you pay as much as US$ 170K in a speeding fine.

                How much would Larry Ellison pay if he were caught speeding in Palo Alto?

                Dinotrac, let's bridge the gap, then we can discuss a VAT.

                Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

                by PatriciaVa on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:46:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Philosophical difference, I guess. (0+ / 0-)

                  I have high hopes for my kids.

                  One thing puzzles, me though.

                  EU is the home of some fabulously wealthy people.
                  It's where they build Ferraris, Lanborghinis, Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Mercedes, etc.
                  It is the epicenter of Haute Couture, not to mention both F1 racing and polo, two of the most effete sporting enterprises known to man.

                  I can't imagine the EU being more equal than we are unless its just that much harder to become wealthy in the EU.

                  Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

                  by dinotrac on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 03:14:34 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  EU far more Equal (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    NoMoreLies, dinotrac

                    Let's glance at the number of US Billionaires...

                    360

                    How many in Europe - Russia - Turkey...

                    170

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    Generally speaking, the tax code in Europe discourages very high salaries, even at the Sr VP level.

                    Not so in the US, not since Reagan.

                    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

                    by PatriciaVa on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 03:29:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sounds like it maintains royal traditions... (0+ / 0-)

                      a pampered elite that the hoi polloi can't hope to join.

                      By contrast, if you look at some of the wealthiest Americans like Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, and Mark Cuban didn't start out ultra-rich.

                      Heck, Mark Cuban tended bar at one point.

                      Again, it's a matter of preference.  I'd just as soon live in a society that encourages and enables people to succeed instead of protecting the privileged status of an elite class.

                      Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

                      by dinotrac on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 03:46:57 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I like the US better too, but... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...don't insist on the VAT.

                        Dinotrac, as President Obama said during the campaign, our working and middle-class have seen wage stagnation for over a decade.

                        And now you want to impose a VAT on them?

                        You saw how Dems reacted to the excise tax.  Imagine how they would react to a national sales tax.

                        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

                        by PatriciaVa on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 04:00:14 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Depends on how you implement VAT (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RickMassimo

          in a number of countries, basics (food, public transport, children's clothing etc) are VAT-excempt, or are taxed at a lower rate. That makes it a non-regressive tax.

          The FOX is a common carrier of rabies, a virus that leaves its victims foaming at the mouth and causes paranoia and hallucinations.

          by Calouste on Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:52:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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