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View Diary: The Governor Who Did the Right Thing (266 comments)

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  •  Would you like to clarify that? (5+ / 0-)
    1. You start by saying "not to dismiss your experience", yet that is exactly what you seem to do.
    1. What do you mean by "Some of the most vicious bullying I have ever seen has been in the gay community" which sounds suspiciously like you are calling out "gay-on-gay" bullying which translates to blaming the victim.
    1. Your statement "If you...ended all homophobia tomorrow the bullys would just find another bit of "difference" to exploit" seems to dismiss homophobia.

    Let me be absolutely clear here--from everything I have ever read about bullying, the most potent, vicious, and virulent forms of bullying are related to sexual orientation. While racial prejudice may be bigger in terms of adult bigotry and discrimination, in school-age bullying, nothing is worse than anti-gay bullying.

    If you don't mean to sound homophobic or to be dismissing the pervasiveness of anti-gay bullying, then I think you need to make that clear. If I have inferred your intent incorrectly, then I welcome your clarification.

    "[The GOP wanting to debate Obama is like saying] 'Let's see how tough Aquaman is when we get him in the water.' " --Seth Meyers

    by homogenius on Fri Feb 19, 2010 at 08:35:06 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry if I offended you. (10+ / 0-)

      My point was not to dismiss homophobia, but to point out that eliminating homophobia will not eliminate bullying...there is no causal relationship between the two.  We should be able to realize that bullying and homophobia are two distinct issues that are sometimes, but not always related.

      What do you mean by "Some of the most vicious bullying I have ever seen has been in the gay community" which sounds suspiciously like you are calling out "gay-on-gay" bullying which translates to blaming the victim

      Do you mean to tell met that there is no bullying in the gay community?  The most vicious instance of bullying I have ever witness was between a gay sales manager and one of his straight, female employees.  When I lived in San Francisco my wife and I were derided as "breeders" by a couple of young gay men while pushing our daughter down the sidewalk in Golden Gate Park.  I'm sorry that the fact that gay people have the ability to be bullies just like straight people (guess that means they are no better and no worse than the rest of us) offends you.

      Let me be absolutely clear here--from everything I have ever read about bullying, the most potent, vicious, and virulent forms of bullying are related to sexual orientation. While racial prejudice may be bigger in terms of adult bigotry and discrimination, in school-age bullying, nothing is worse than anti-gay bullying.

      I do not want to get into an arguement about "who is bullied more". I'm sure that there a few overweight kids out there right now who think their lives are pretty miserable.  Are you going to tell them they have nothing on you?

      Again, I will say that was not dismissing bullying based upon sexual orientation, I was pointing out that bullying is about the exclusion of those that are different...doesn't matter how they are different.  Those that are overweight, have developmental disabilities, wear black nail polish, have blue hair, get good grades, get bad acne, or just have the bad luck to be new to the school can be mercilessly bullied.  Will eliminated homophobia change their experience?  I doubt it...they'll still be different.

      Is it so hard to think that we might be able to chew gum and walk at the same time...that we can deal with homophobia and bullying at the same time?

      If you don't mean to sound homophobic or to be dismissing the pervasiveness of anti-gay bullying, then I think you need to make that clear.

      Did you really have to throw out the homophobia card?  Just because I think that bullying can happen independantly of sexual orientation.  Just because I want all kids to have a bully free experience at school means that I'm homophobic?

      •  FAIL. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gustynpip, Clarknt67, JesseCW, FogCityJohn

        You had the opportunity to step back and diffuse this, but you had to throw out all the tired and disingenuous "well you can be as bad as anyone else" arguments. I don't want to get into all the ins and outs of oppresion and privilege that have been argued to death.

        No, I don't like the "more oppressed than thou" game. But you really don't want to go there. I've been an overweight person for most of my life. I'm living with multiple disabilities, both visible an hidden.

        But do you really want to equate a couple of pathetic queens calling you a breeder with pervasive, unrelenting, soul-killing bullying of a child?

        No, you're not sorry at all.

        "[The GOP wanting to debate Obama is like saying] 'Let's see how tough Aquaman is when we get him in the water.' " --Seth Meyers

        by homogenius on Fri Feb 19, 2010 at 09:34:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, I didn't go far enough. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gzodik, Clarknt67, JesseCW

          I took great care in my first response to you to try and be neutral and give you the opportunity to clarify. I deliberately tried not to get in your face.

          Your response was bullshit. I didn't "throw out the homophobia card". I was measured in my reply--perhaps more than you deserved.

          "[The GOP wanting to debate Obama is like saying] 'Let's see how tough Aquaman is when we get him in the water.' " --Seth Meyers

          by homogenius on Fri Feb 19, 2010 at 09:37:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Guess we disagree (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CatM, AllisonInSeattle, blueocean

          Sorry you have had a tough life, but trying to bully me here from behind a computer screen isn't going to make you feel better.

          Again,  I do apologize if I offended you with my earlier comment.

          I'm now done discussing this with you as it is obvious that you have strongly held beliefs that nothing I can say will change, and I personally believe that you are pressing your points from an emotional POV and not a rational one.  There is no point in further arguement.

          •  No, actually. (5+ / 0-)

            I disputed several of your arguments. And I utterly reject your implied claim that you are arguing rationally and I am not.

            You're doing a fair amount of projection by labelling me a bully while you draw false equivalencies about LGBT people.

            And spare me the disingenuous false apology. Saying "I apologize if you were offended" is no kind of apology. It's like saying "I apologize if you ran into my fist". It only counts if you apologize for being offensive.

            I make no apology for being impassioned. As I said, I made a good-faith effort not to pick a fight, but you were having none of it.

            "[The GOP wanting to debate Obama is like saying] 'Let's see how tough Aquaman is when we get him in the water.' " --Seth Meyers

            by homogenius on Fri Feb 19, 2010 at 10:12:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think you're confused about the issue (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dallasdoc, gustynpip, Uberbah

            Sales managers who are rude to employees and people who dispute you online are not bullies that public policy need address. We need to understand what motivates bullies in public school to address helping kids. Very, very often they target gays and gender-non-conformists.  

            Everyone agrees: DADT sucks. So when do we vote?!??!

            by Scott Wooledge on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 02:51:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree public policy (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              revsue, blueocean, Fall line

              need not address "homogenius" bullying behavior, but he is definitely taking a bullying approach, trying to intimidate the poster who said absolutely nothing offensive except to offer the justifiable perspective that bullying is horrible for people who are victims and that there are other targets of pretty brutal bullying besides gay people.

              Yes, bullies often target gays and transgendered people. They also very often target people with Asperger's. They also very often target fat kids.

              http://abcnews.go.com/...

              "In some areas, there have been reports of 90 percent of kids with Asperger's are getting bullied on a daily basis," he said.

              http://www.amazon.com/...

              A 2002 study from Comprehensive Issues in Pediatric Nursing found that 94 percent of students with Asperger Syndrome face torment from their peers. Indeed, some of their behaviors and characteristics that others see as different make many of these children easy targets for frequent and severe bullying.

              We make easy targets because we are inadvertently noncomformist, we lack social networks that offer protection (eg, we spend a lot of time alone), we are unlikely to report the bullying because we rarely reach out to people, we are "naive" and "gullible" as children, and we often fit the "geek" profile. In addition, people with Asperger's often have poor muscle tone, particularly of the upper body.

              Many people with Asperger's run or walk awkwardly, speak awkwardly, and can be clumsy.

              Nobody should belittle the experiences of anyone who is bullied by playing the "I'm bullied more than you" card.

              Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

              by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 05:56:53 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Excuse me. Did you not read the poster's comment (0+ / 0-)

                How can you excuse a comment that the worst bullying is between gays not offensive?  And then had two weenie examples to back up such an outrageous statement It wasn't that gays can be just as bullying.  It was that they're the MOST bullying.

                The response was appropriately resistant to that outrageous statement and much more restrained than I'd likely have been.  And I'm not gay, so it wasn't personal to me.  The poster could quite easily have said - whoops, I didn't mean that the way it came out.  But no, he had to go on and on with his weeny examples and justifications and give one of the those "I'm sorry you were offended" facetious apologies.

                No one was trying to play the I was bullied more card.  Rather,homogeneous was offering his opinion based upon his experience.  And then got upset for the reaction.  Appropriately.

                "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                by gustynpip on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 12:47:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That is not how I read the comment (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blueocean

                  The comment said the worst bullying the poster had witnessed was in the gay community. I assume the poster has not witnessed a lot of bullying. And based on the descriptions of the "vicious" bullying which I did not find particularly vicious, I think that--regardless of what the poster said--he/she does not have a lot of experience bullying.

                  I did not at all get the sense that the poster was saying ANYTHING about gays not getting bullied or other people getting it worse.

                  I did see homogenious flat out say that bullying of gay people was the worst--as though other peoples' experiences with bullying were less relevant or less credible or something of which to be dismissive.

                  I also think that homogenous initial response to the poster was unduly harsh, assuming the worst and reading things into what the poster was saying that--to me--do not seem to be there.

                  Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

                  by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 01:27:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I agree (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            revsue, blueocean, Fall line

            that is exactly what he is doing to you.

            Don't worry, other people can see his behavior for what it is. I think he's twisting what you are saying and going over the top in bullying you for having what I think is a very reasonable perspective on bullying and the nature of bullies.

            Nothing you said suggested that you were "homophobic."

            Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

            by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 05:49:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. (9+ / 0-)

        Listen, I'm gay, and I spent my entire childhood being subjected to vicious bullying by my schoolmates and by my own brother.  This went on for years, and it made my life an absolute hell.  The "reason" for the bullying was my gayness, which was obvious even when I was a child.

        That you and your wife were called an unkind name once while strolling through Golden Gate Park does not establish that there's "vicious" bullying in the gay community.  That doesn't even qualify in my book.  

        You also claim to have witnessed an incident of bullying by a gay man.  You provide no details, but I'd like to ask, how do you know the guy was gay?  For that matter, how do you know his female employee was straight?

        I'm responding to your comment because you have made a sweeping generalization about my community but have tried to justify it by, at most, a single example.  I'm not about to sit here and let you accuse my community of being guilty of bullying when for ages we've been some of its most common victims.

        •  PLease... (5+ / 0-)

          Again, This isn't to limit your experience.

          My point from the begining has been that Bullying is not dependent upon sexuality.

          I'm not saying that because you are gay that you should be bullied, I'm not saying that gay people are not horribly bullied.

          What I am saying is that alot of other people are bullied for alot of other reasons other than being gay...and that eliminating homophobia isn't going to eliminate their bullying.

          As far as the sales manager?  He was very open about his sexuality...so?  And the employee was straight...I dunno...she was married with two kids was a big clue.  I could have been wrong and she could have been in the closet...she certainly tried to present herself as a happily married straight woman with two kids...her husband certainly didn't seem like a beard.

          I'm not about to sit here and let you accuse my community of being guilty of bullying when for ages we've been some of its most common victims.

          First of all I am accusing the gay community of being capable of bullying...are you saying they are not?  Secondly, just because the gay community have been, and still are, frequent victims of bullying doesn't mean that they are less likely to be bullies.  

          If it makes you feel better to attack me because I think that all of us, gay or straight, are capable of both being bullies and being victims of bullies...well attack away.

          Won't change facts though.

          •  I think you have a good point (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            snakelass, Uberbah, Fall line

            But you're making it the wrong way.

            It may be true that bullies will find other traits to pick attack when homophobia is (finally!) stamped out. But if we can get the message across that being gay doesn't make one a target for bullying, then surely we can get the message across that being obese -- or disabled -- or having any other unusual trait -- doesn't make a person a valid target for bullying either.

            It may be that the bullies will persist in the absence of homophobia. So will the effort to stamp out bullying. Let's fight that war one battle at a time.

            Even though our dream is not yet completed... we are not quitters... and we are not through. Ty'Sheoma Bethea

            by Nowhere Man on Fri Feb 19, 2010 at 10:51:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Point taken (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              revsue, snakelass, ladybug53, Nowhere Man

              Fair enough.  I just think we don't have to fight one battle at a time.

              •  My personal history biases me (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ladybug53, kurt, Uberbah

                (see other comment.)

                The way I see it, as long as homophobia lasts slurs like "faggot" will be convenient to pin on kids who are outcast for one reason or another. With homophobia gone, it'll be harder to find an excuse for the bullying.

                Even though our dream is not yet completed... we are not quitters... and we are not through. Ty'Sheoma Bethea

                by Nowhere Man on Fri Feb 19, 2010 at 11:12:02 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Until we can accept our differences (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ladybug53, gustynpip, Uberbah, blueocean

                  with due respect there will always be words used to hurt others.

                  Right here on Kos a few people have found various new ways to insult/bully people.  

                  Really, the number one insult here is to call someone a right wing troll, or maybe a sockpuppet.  I have no problem if it's true, but I'm starting to see it more and more when it is being used as trigger words to exclude people with whom they disagree.

                  Do you think it hurts someone any less to be called stupid, or an idiot, than to be called a "faggot"?  I sure don't and yet I see posts on this site that use those words every single day.

                  •  Yes (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    grada3784, Uberbah, Clarknt67

                    "Only an idiot could think it's a good idea to privatize social security"

                    Hurts a hell of a lot less than

                    "You faggot"

                    Thank you for playing.

                    "There are a lot of bitchers and whiners and snorters out there, and we intend to listen to them all, and then crush them. Former Sen. Simpson, on SS "Reform"

                    by JesseCW on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 01:27:07 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you're kidding right? (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      revsue, blueocean

                      So a girl who's peers call her stupid or an idiot is suffering less than a boy who is called a "faggot"?

                      There is no objective way to determine "who is hurt more".  It's all in the context and intent isn't it?  

                      This is the entire reason I did not give details into the kind of bullying I have seen.  I knew it would lead to people saying "that's not that bad" and "I've experienced worse".  It really doesn't matter who has had it worse...doens't it need to stop either way?

                      My point to the original commentor "DallasDoc" was only that focusing on eliminating homophobia would not eliminate bullying.  My point is that if we want to eliminate bullying (and homophobia for that matter) we have to have a holistic approach that we need to respect our differences and treach each other with kindenss...even if we disagree.

                      •  "Yes", and I'm not kidding (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Uberbah

                        because anyone who called me an idiot, when I was a kid, knew he was lying; hence the hate didn't dig into me the way being called "faggot" or "queer" did*.

                        I don't think anyone here is arguing against taking a holistic approach against bullying. But I also think it would help the effort if it were supplemented with an anti-homophobia campaign, because it straddles the border between the abstract and the concrete: anyone can be a target of homophobia.

                        *Writing this makes it seem like I gave some creedence to the idea that being gay was a bad thing. I don't think I ever internalized that feeling; instead I acquired a fear of homophobes (or "metahomophobia", as I've called it.)

                        Even though our dream is not yet completed... we are not quitters... and we are not through. Ty'Sheoma Bethea

                        by Nowhere Man on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 09:54:44 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  OK... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          blueocean

                          Fair enough...I just disagree.

                          Within my own family my daughter was hurt being called a hippie but could care less when someone called her a lesbian (daughter's words "who cares if I'm gay or not"). Guess what?  Kids are smart and they figured out which buttons to push on my daughter pretty quick.  

                          You may say "why would she be bothered by being called a hippie"?  I don't know, I just know she was hurt to the point of not wanting to attend school.  I wasn't about to minimize her feelings on the matter.

                          Why did it bother you to be called faggot?  Was it the meaning of the word?  Or was it the context (you are different, not part of our group, not deserving of respect, you are less then us).

                          •  What I heard, most of all, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gustynpip

                            was the hatred behind that word. And it hurt to be hated.

                            I couldn't say why other types of insults might have hurt less. Maybe it's because if a kid called me stupid (for example), it made them look dumb, because I clearly wasn't. Homophobic slurs were harder to respond to.

                            Or maybe it's because there really is more hatred behind homphobic slurs than there is behind words like "stupid" or "hippie". That's hard to measure, but anecdotal evidence abounds.

                            Even though our dream is not yet completed... we are not quitters... and we are not through. Ty'Sheoma Bethea

                            by Nowhere Man on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 11:56:20 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think it's about one point at a time (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dallasdoc, Uberbah, Fall line

                I think the point introduce of introducing homophobia was this:

                it's self evident to most people that being overweight or not traditional beautiful or being an ethnic or religious minorities makes one a target. At least to anyone who ever attended an American school.

                But many are blind or apathetic to the extent GLBTQ makes a person a target.

                Or worse. Righties are very actively fighting efforts to include messages of GLBT tolerance, because it's good to bully them. It keeps them in line, it keeps their perversions from spreading to other kids. And we can't have that.

                Everyone agrees: DADT sucks. So when do we vote?!??!

                by Scott Wooledge on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 03:55:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Facts clearly aren't your concern (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dallasdoc, gustynpip, Clarknt67

            since you're making an accusation about the entire gay community based upon what appears to be nothing more than a single incident.

            I fully understand that gay people aren't the only people who are bullied.  What I object to is your utterly unsupported assertion about how some of the most vicious bullying you've ever seen was in the gay community.  You don't have one shred of evidence other than your one little anecdote, yet you attempt to indict an entire group of people with it.

            You do realize that this is the essence of prejudice, don't you?  You take an action or characteristic of a single individual and then ascribe it to the entire group of which the individual is a part.  You wouldn't dare post something here saying, for example, that because you happened to see a black man commit a crime that therefore all black men commit crime or are predisposed to do so.  Yet that's basically what you're doing with regard to gay people.

            I think what's going on here is that you took offense at being called a name once by a couple of (apparently) gay men in Golden Gate Park, and now you want to accuse all gay people of something.  Sorry, but I'm calling you on your BS and your lame attempts to generalize.  

            •  I am not accusing all gay people of anything (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              revsue, Uberbah, blueocean

              It appears that my anecdotal statement in my first comment has offended you and others, and for that I apologize.

              I do not believe that gay people are any more likely to bully others than any other group.  

              I still think that bullies victimize those that are different than themselves and that eliminating homophobia would only eliminate one symptom of bullying and not the disease (the fear of the other).

              Now if you would like to argue that point I'm all ears.

              •  Please (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gustynpip, Clarknt67

                You wrote:

                Some of the most vicious bullying I have ever seen has been in the gay community.

                So if you're not accusing all gay people of anything, what's that comment doing in your original post?  

                And you may keep your lame-ass pseudo apology.  If you've done or said something wrong, you apologize for it.  You do not apologize for another person's feelings.  You can take responsibility for the fact that your statement was incorrect and offensive and apologize for it.  Or you can try and make it seem like those who take exception to your comment are the problem.  Taking responsibility is the adult thing to do.  The other course is, well, just the kind of shit that politicians and celebrities pull all the time.

                •  Meh (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CatM, ej25

                  He's relating his personal experience, not talking statistics.  But yeah, if he'd left out "gay community" he'd be in a much better position.

                  I'm a part of the reality-based community, not the personality-based community.

                  by Uberbah on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 05:05:39 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Maybe they just haven't personally (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Fall line

                  seen a lot of bullying. I think they worded something very inartfully that they admitted having worded inartfully.

                  I have never seen any bullying from the gay community. I have seen bullying of gay friends. I have also seen bullying of different groups who are not gay, including myself and my children, some of it pretty severe.

                  I think the person worded what they meant very badly, which was to say they have seen bullying from the gay community. I don't consider the anecdotes they related to be anything near "vicious" compared to bullying I have seen or experienced, so that also suggests to me that this person just doesn't have a lot of firsthand experience of what true bullying is like.

                  I think, gay or straight, anyone who has lived through bullying or had a child who was bullied will agree it is absolutely horrible and we must work together to stop it.

                  Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

                  by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 06:01:35 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, if the person had indeed just "worded" things (0+ / 0-)

                    poorly, they would have just said so and apologized - genuinely.  Instead, this person first tried to rationalize, then became defensive, trying to become the "victim" - which you bought hook, line, and sinker - and then gave the vacuous, meaningless "I'm sorry you were offended" line.  Has STILL not taken one whit of responsibility for the way the statement was worded.  That makes me believe is was worded exactly the way s/he wanted to to be.

                    "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                    by gustynpip on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 12:55:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He did not say (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Uberbah, blueocean

                      "I'm sorry you were offended," which puts the onus of the offense on the person hearing it.

                      He (or she) said, "I'm sorry if I've offended you."

                      This is, in fact, someone taking responsiblity for what one has done. He/she is saying, "I did something that appears to have offended you and I am sorry that I did that."

                      It is not saying, "I'm sorry that you chose to take offense at what I did."

                      He/she also did NOT say the most vicious bullying occurs in the gay community. He/she said:

                      Some of the most vicious bullying I have ever seen has been in the gay community

                      Again, perhaps that is true and that is some of the the most vicious bullying he/she has ever seen. That does not mean that is where the most vicious bullying takes place. Certainly that is not true in my experience.

                      If you are going to fault someone for how they word something, then you need to--at the very least--accurately represent their wording when you choose to criticize it.

                      Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

                      by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 01:33:12 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I disagree with your interpretation of what (0+ / 0-)
                        was said.  The claim had to be untrue, whether it was of what the poster himself had seen or of what exists.  His example was of an manager yelling at an employee and of someone calling him a baby factory.  That can not be the worst bullying he's seen unless he's been living in a cave by himself.  Therefore, the phrase is meaningless.  

                        And yes, his "apology" was more of the I'm sorry you were offended than the I'm sorry if I offended you variety.  He could have simpley said - I'm sorry I used that phrase.  It was wrong.  No one cared if he offended anyone.  They cared that he'd chosen to use that phrase.

                        Letting a manipulator like that play games with words and then play the victim card on top of it, all while clearly being homophobic (I mean, who else would remember being called a baby factory years later - or even do anything but laugh about it) really undermines any battle to fight real bullying by anyone against anyone.  

                        "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                        by gustynpip on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 02:22:51 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I see someone (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Uberbah, blueocean

                          who very clearly believes that bullying is wrong, no matter who does it. The poster said that.

                          I think that is something we can ALL agree on and should all work to fight against.

                          Also, he didn't say "baby factory." He said "breeder."

                          You need to quote people correctly.

                          He did not present his view as fact, he presented as his own experience. I agree it seems like he hasn't witnessed a lot of bullying in his life if that's the worst he's seen. But there are actually people that lucky.

                          I also think that his apology was more heartfelt than you think it was. Politicians use "I'm sorry you were offended" because they're trying to parse words. People often say, "I'm sorry I hurt you" or "I'm sorry I offended you" not to parse words but because that's how we often express remorse for what we've said or done.

                          I have said to my boyfriend more than once, "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings" and I certainly feel remorseful and do not at all mean, "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by what I said."

                          When someone says, "I am sorry I did [this]" they are taking ownership of what they have done. SO it's not as specific as "I'm sorry I said that and offended you" but what else is he apologizing for other than the thing that he did that offended the person?

                          I think it is wrong how so often people here just jump on people for misspeaking or saying something less than perfectly and credit them with all sorts of ill motives that they do not have. We are not all public relations specialists who choose every word precisely. Some of us are just people who can word things inartfully and regret it later.

                          Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

                          by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 02:30:02 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, (0+ / 0-)
                            because I saw a thoughtless and uncaring person responding to homogeneous.

                            BTW, I find it interesting that in a lengthy post about people "saying something less than perfectly" you inform me that I must quote people correctly because I used the phrase baby factory rather than breeder.  That's simply nitpicking, yet you insist on such total accuracy there, but not when it's something that is going to affect the feelings of the person being responded to.  Very strange.  But whatever.  Your focus on the accuracy or lack of in those areas you feel is important and I'll do the same in the areas I feel is important.  

                            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                            by gustynpip on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 02:38:24 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, there's a difference (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Uberbah, blueocean

                            To me, there is a difference between someone saying something less than perfectly and misquoting someone. Maybe that is because it is my job to quote people accurately.

                            Maybe it is because I take things very literally.

                            If the poster had said, as you misquoted, that "the worst bullying takes place in the gay community," I would completely share your outrage over such a stupid, unsubstantiated, untrue statement.

                            But because what he really said is that "some of the most vicious bullying he has seen" is in the gay community, and also subsequently clarified that he did not mean it the way your quote would suggest he means it, I think accuracy is required.

                            Also, I think breeder would stick out more strangely to someone than "baby factory." I personally don't see why one would assume that this had anything to do with the person saying it being gay--as opposed to perhaps someone opposed to overpopulation (I've had friends against reproduction). But I just think when quoting people or even pharaphrasing them, we have an obligation to get quotes right, especially when the misrepresentation gives a different meaning to what is being said.

                            When we're speaking ourselves, we should certainly make an effort to say exactly what we mean, but I think a lot of us don't always speak as carefully as we should.

                            I think a thoughtless and heartless person would not have tried to apologize to homogenous. I think they would have just come out the door swinging and even gone further, saying "Of course gays are the most vicious bullies!" if that is what they really meant.

                            He did not do that, I think because that is not what he meant.

                            I know that if I said, "Some of the republicans I know are the biggest a-holes" and someone said, "You are a bigot! How can you say that!" and I really meant it, then I would say, "Republicans ARE the biggest a-holes. How can you say they aren't? And I guess you're one, too." or something ilke that.

                            I wouldn't say, "I'm sorry I offended you. I don't think all republicans are a-holes or that republicans are more likely to be a-holes than other people."

                            I would only say that if I felt bad that what I meant to say was not coming across properly.

                            Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

                            by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 02:53:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry, Cat (0+ / 0-)

                            But you're wrong on this. Let's try a little thought experiment, shall we?  Let us assume that the poster of the comment we are discussing had said:

                            "Some of the biggest skinflints I've ever seen have been in the Jewish community."

                            Or:

                            "Some of the most violent criminals I've ever seen have been in the African-American community."  

                            Would you be standing up for what the poster had said?  Would you be arguing that s/he was simply discussing his/her own personal experience?  I doubt it.  The difference here is the group to which the stereotyping or offensive comment is directed.  People on this site feel far too free to make comments that are very casually homophobic, and then they try to pretend that the comments are something else.  

                            In a similar vein, only yesterday rserven had a rec list diary about just such an issue.  I recommend that you read it.

              •  I have a very big problem with this comment too (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gustynpip

                Some of the most vicious bullying I have ever seen has been in the gay community.

                It echoes the old media response to post Prop 8 activism, which framed boycots as bullying (leaving unaddressed whether a majority banding together to target and strip a small group of rights is bullying).

                It echoes Christianist nonsense they are being "bullied" by gays that are merely responding to their efforts to apply biblical law to EVERYONE's life.

                It echoes paranoia of the threat of a dangerous, deranged, uncivil Lavendar Menence!

                Everyone agrees: DADT sucks. So when do we vote?!??!

                by Scott Wooledge on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 04:06:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Why are you so insistent on your faux apology? (0+ / 0-)

                It would be such a simple matter to simply apologize for having made an egregious, inappropriate generalization about the gay community and that would be the end of the matter.  Rather, you've given one weeny example to "back up" your assertion, and then pretend people are upset about that example.  And rather than this ridiculous "I'm sorry people were upset" why not just say "I'm sorry I did this"?  It's time to just take responsibility.

                "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                by gustynpip on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 12:53:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  You are right-its about POWER DYNAMICS (4+ / 0-)

          Also, I have to add that what gives bullying power and control as well as the ability to create fear and hostility is the power dynamics of the school/institution etc.  Gays are in the minority in this country both publicly and privately.  To be called a name by someone that might be gay albeit annoying is NOT bullying.  It is ONE jerk being a jerk.  Bullying or Harassing is a constant and pervasive action done by someone in a place of power.  
          As a mom of bi-racial children I get very upset when people imply to my that black people can be racists as well.  I tell them to come talk to me when Blacks earn as much as whites, hold as many positions of power and have an equal shot at education.  Until that happens it is just the oppressed trying to fight back.  The same goes for gays in this country.

          •  Yep. Thank you. You get it. (0+ / 0-)

            It's funny, because power relationships are so crucial in situations like this, but many people either ignore them or try to pretend they don't matter.  It's what happens when conservatives try to claim that affirmative action is the same as Jim Crow.  Both, they assert, are "racial discrimination."  Of course, one attempts to address and rectify the pernicious effects of the other, but they refuse to see the distinction.

            A good friend of mine has a bi-racial child who was bullied in part for being bi-racial but mostly because the other kids thought of him as gay.  She nearly lost her mind trying to get the school to take it seriously.  She finally had to get the local ACLU chapter and her city councilmember involved before the school would address the problem.  

            I can't tell you how depressing it is for me to be nearly 50 years old and to hear that kids are still going through the same shit I did.

    •  Who was hanging from trees? Gays or blacks? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sacrelicious, CatM, JesseCW

      So perhaps there is bullying that's based on difference, not just being gay or not.

      This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

      by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 01:08:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AllisonInSeattle

        Nobody can claim ownership on victimhood when it comes to bullying.

        Bullies, like rapists, are equal opportunity targets. Rapists, for example, will rape someone not even of their own sexual orientation or someone elderly because it's about power, not about sex.

        They prey on those they view as weaker or less able to defend themselves and those they think it will be easier to marshall others against.

        This includes gay people, fat people, people with disabilities, people with Asperger's, racially different people (my white boyfriend was horribly bullied in a San Antonio public school with mostly Hispanic students, for example), etc.

        Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

        by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 06:05:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think this is dismissive of others' experiences (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      revsue, my pet rock, Naniboujou, blueocean

      "Nothing is worse than anti-gay bullying."

      Do we really have to quantify who gets bullied the most or the worst?

      Why don't you look up bullying and Asperger's? It is almost unheard of to find a child with Asperger's Syndrome who has not been a victim of bullying. They are often socially naive and odd, making them easy targets.

      I was a victim of severe bullying that, at one point, included having to jump out of the way of a truck that my worst bully drove across an icy parking lot right behind me as I walked to a store, to intimidate me. I was also sexually harassed at school from 7th grade onward.

      My sons with Asperger's have both suffered from being bullied repeatedly, by different kids. One of them had a kid who kept shoving pins into his legs during class.

      My oldest son, who is overweight and also on the autism spectrum, was bullied for years.

      My ex-husband--also with Asperger's--told me this story (before he knew he had Asperger's) to illustrate why he was fine with our kids not having friends, because when he was in junior high, these boys convinced him they wanted to be his friend and he should go with them to play. He did, and they started beating his legs with sticks.

      Yes, gay people suffer terrible bullying, and I would not try to diminish that experience. But neither should you diminish the experience of others by suggesting that "gay bullying" is the worst and that anyone who dares say otherwise is somehow anti-gay.

      Another interesting thing is that the bullying leveled at my 13-year-old is frequently that he is gay. Some school kids did this to him in front of his family, at a movie theater.

      Now, he may very well be gay. I don't know, and he's not saying.

      There are simply a lot of people in my experience who are subjected to bullying who are not gay, like people with Asperger's, obese children, very poor children, and people with mental or physical challenges.

      I agree with Fall Line that bullies simply target people who are different and who they find easy to get other kids to join them in harassing. All these groups fit that category, unfortunately.

      Supporting a Pragmatic Approach to Progressive Policies

      by CatM on Sat Feb 20, 2010 at 05:46:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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