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View Diary: Breaking!!! People Die in War!!! (151 comments)

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  •  War and Death (6+ / 0-)

    Jimmy Margulies, New Jersey Record, Buy this cartoon

    TWiEC - Al Gore vs the Denialists, Feb. 22nd - A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

    by JekyllnHyde on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 04:57:43 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Indeed, Granny. (11+ / 0-)

      War itself is venal, dirty, confusing and perhaps the most potent narcotic invented by humankind. Modern industrial warfare means that most of those who are killed never see their attackers. There is nothing glorious or gallant about it. If we saw what wounds did to bodies, how killing is far more like butchering an animal than the clean and neat Hollywood deaths on the screen, it would turn our stomachs. If we saw how war turns young people into intoxicated killers, how it gives soldiers a license to destroy not only things but other human beings, and if we saw the perverse thrill such destruction brings, we would be horrified and frightened. If we understood that combat is often a constant battle with a consuming fear we have perhaps never known, a battle that we often lose, we would find the abstract words of war--glory, honor and patriotism--not only hollow but obscene. If we saw the deep psychological scars of slaughter, the way it maims and stunts those who participate in war for the rest of their lives, we would keep our children away. Indeed, it would be hard to wage war.

      For war, when we confront it truthfully, exposes the darkness within all of us. This darkness shatters the illusions many of us hold not only about the human race but about ourselves. Few of us confront our own capacity for evil, but this is especially true in wartime. And even those who engage in combat are afterward given cups from the River Lethe to forget. And with each swallow they imbibe the myth of war. For the myth makes war palatable. It gives war a logic and sanctity it does not possess. It saves us from peering into the darkest recesses of our own hearts. And this is why we like it. It is why we clamor for myth. The myth is enjoyable, and the press, as is true in every nation that goes to war, is only too happy to oblige. They dish it up and we ask for more.

      War as myth begins with blind patriotism, which is always thinly veiled self-glorification. We exalt ourselves, our goodness, our decency, our humanity, and in that self-exaltation we denigrate the other. The flip side of nationalism is racism--look at the jokes we tell about the French. It feels great. War as myth allows us to suspend judgment and personal morality for the contagion of the crowd. War means we do not face death alone. We face it as a group. And death is easier to bear because of this. We jettison all the moral precepts we have about the murder of innocent civilians, including children, and dismiss atrocities of war as the regrettable cost of battle. As I write this article, hundreds of thousands of innocent people, including children and the elderly, are trapped inside the city of Basra in southern Iraq--a city I know well--without clean drinking water. Many will die. But we seem, because we imbibe the myth of war, unconcerned with the suffering of others.

      Yet, at the same time, we hold up our own victims. These crowds of silent dead--our soldiers who made "the supreme sacrifice" and our innocents who were killed in the crimes against humanity that took place on 9/11--are trotted out to sanctify the cause and our employment of indiscriminate violence. To question the cause is to defile the dead. Our dead count. Their dead do not. We endow our victims, like our cause, with righteousness. And this righteousness gives us the moral justification to commit murder. It is an old story.

      - Chris Hedges

      •  Robert Fisk: We Westerners Don't Care (10+ / 0-)

        See Robert Fisk on DemocracyNow


        Every time an American or British soldier is killed, we know his name, his age, whether he was married, the names of his children. But 500,000-600,000 Iraqis, how many of their names have found their way onto our television programs, our radio shows, our newspapers? They are just numbers, and we don’t even know the statistic.

        Do you remember the time when George Bush was pushed and pushed: what were the figures of the Iraqi dead? At that stage, it was less, and he said, "Oh, 30,000. More or less." Can you imagine if he had been asked how many Americans had died, and he said "3,000, more or less"? Those words, "more or less," somehow said it all.

        •  More Robert Fisk (8+ / 0-)

          Governments ... want their people to see war as a drama of opposites, good and evil, ‘them’ and ‘us’, victory or defeat. But war is primarily not about victory or defeat but about death and the infliction of death. It represents the total failure of the human spirit. I know an editor who has wearied of hearing me say this: but how many editors have first hand experience of war?

            •  prehaps we should start some.... (9+ / 0-)

              only about civilian deaths in our wars and occupations.

              I think the IGTNT diaries actually promote more war.  That is not their intention, but they glamorize and make the deaths of combatants sympathetic, and that leads to more wars by the USA.  For example, yesterday someone wrote how an IGTNT diary was about someone who only wanted to kill 'ragheads' and hated Muslims.... but it was lacking that information.  It just made him out to be a nice, moral guy who only wanted to serve his country.  This is disingenuous, and really is part of the overall American narrative that leads to more war.

              That, and the fact that we totally fucking ignore the toll we take on civilians.  The rest of the world sees the pictures and videos, we do not.

              War cannot be waged to instill any virtue, including democracy or the liberation of women. - Chris Hedges

              by dancewater on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 05:17:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Good and bad people in the military (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                just like good and bad people all over the world. I don't think that makes it ok to trash or dishonor ANYONE's death, military or civilian.

                •  but does it make it OK to glorify and honor a (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  death when the person who died was engaged in evil?  There are a lot of options between "trashing" a death and writing it up with honor and glory and without honesty.

                  Now, if Cheney were to die, are we going to do a IGTNT diary on him?  And fail to mention any of his failings?  Or would we be better off just ignoring it?

                  War cannot be waged to instill any virtue, including democracy or the liberation of women. - Chris Hedges

                  by dancewater on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 05:41:40 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Those "kids" (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Granny Doc, SpamNunn

                    in the IGTNT diaries are just as much someone's family as the civilians we are killing and about whom you are so concerned. I think (and have stated in this thread) that all deaths in war are tragic. You may be comfortable passing judgement on those who have died. I am not. I don't know their circumstances or why they were in the situations they were in when they were killed, so I can't bring myself to comment on whether or not they are worthy of being mourned or honored. I choose to honor the lives of any/everyone. I'm sorry that you do not.

                    •  looking forward to your diaries/reports (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      on civilian deaths from wars and occupations.  Lots of material out there to work with.

                      And I am not sorry that I do not honor the life of Cheney.  

                      War cannot be waged to instill any virtue, including democracy or the liberation of women. - Chris Hedges

                      by dancewater on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 05:53:10 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Do you know anyone (0+ / 0-)

                        who is serving or has served in the military? Have you talked to them about why they serve or what their circumstances are? The IGTNT diaries are about victims of war, just as the civilians are...especially in this economy and under the oligarchy that is currently our nation. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

                        •  The army is voluntary... (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          dancewater, primarydoc, Arza

                          Civilians arent...

                          Actually, neither are insurgents, given that they are defending themselves against occupiers, trying to drive foreign invaders from their nation.

                          I assume we would do so too... and we actually are responsible for overturning governments, interfering in a way that has caused millions to die and suffer... changed their people's democratically elected systems for the worse, even (Guatemala... Chile... Iran) for the sake of our greed and stupidity.

                          Do they get a raincheck on dealing us the blowback that they have never visited upon us, even though, one could argue, they are owed it? Can they give us what we believe we have the right to visit on others... even when it isnt justified as in tit for tat... kill for kill... just American exceptionalism, fucking around the globe, "because we can," once again.

                          Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                          by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 07:14:47 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow. You're really taking dumbassery (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            to new heights with that one.

                            Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

                            by soonergrunt on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 07:19:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I wish it were just dumbassery... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            It's also insanely painful and cruel... what we do.

                            Dont shoot the messenger! (unless I can be collateral damage, in which case, I know you dont mean it and are very, very sorry.)

                            Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                            by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 08:04:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Tell me something honestly (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            newfie, snpsmom

                            What is with this hating on the US?  I mean really.  During the cold war the russians were at least as bad as we were if not worse, and there's plenty of evidence that they never really stopped, at least in what they call the 'near abroad.'
                            The French pulled all sorts of heinous shit all over Africa, and still are.  The Chinese play slap-and-tickle all over asia, nobody ever complains, least of all you.
                            When's the last time you wrote a diary about Tibet?  Never, from the look of your diary history.
                            That's OK as far as it goes, but after looking at that you seem more pissed off about not getting the candidate you wanted than anything else.  You even wrote a diary about how the Bush administration left us open to an Al Quaeda nuclear bomb attack.  That was funny, by the way.
                            OK, look, I get it.  You're an American and you're more concerned with American leadership.  That's what you would say if I wasn't beating you to it right now.  You were pissed because Howard Dean wasn't the candidate in 2004 and then later because Hillary Clinton wasn't the candidate after the convention in 2008, even though you spent a lot of the intervening time bashing her.  Hillary wouldn't be doing Afghanistan any different if she governed like she said she would when campaigning, and we don't really know how Dr. Dean would've dealt with Afghanistan.  It's for damn sure he would've gotten us out of Iraq ASAP, and I'd have cheered roundly for that one.
                            It does seem that nothing the President does is going to work for you, but I hope that I'm reading that wrong.
                            I've been doing the military thing for over twenty years now, and I've never heard anybody in uniform ever say that we were doing whatever we were doing because we can.  I've heard a lot of bitching in uniform about how the rest of the world looks to us to solve the problems they won't or can't.
                            Afghanistan wasn't something we did just for shits and grins.  You're user name indicates that you're from New York, so you should be able to figure this out without a lot of help.
                            I never saw anybody ever engage the enemy and shout "take that, in the name of US foreign policy!"
                            Matter of fact, I never knew anyone who wanted to do anything other than the mission directly in front of them and complete it with all their troops alive.  We don't roar into town and shoot the shit out of everything we see.  We try to be careful about what we do.
                            I don't know what happened with that airstrike or how they got the idea that they were bad guys in those trucks.  You don't either, by the way.  Here's something for you to think about.  Did you ever notice that when it's a US plane, they say "a US plane"?  I'll bet you didn't know that there are other countries there that have aircraft, and US planes are the only ones ever identified.  Sometimes, the news says "aircraft from US-led coalition."  The region where that strike took place was in the British sector.  They have strike aircraft and helicopter gunships.  Work it out.  Maybe you should go and complain to them.  They have a consulate in NYC.  See, we give them political cover by doing that.  You didn't honestly think we were the only ones who made mistakes over there, did you?

                            Now, I'm not going to tell you about my personal experiences with how bad the Taliban are.  You won't believe me for one, and you don't give any indication of caring for another, so I'll save us both the trouble except to say that I've seen shit that they've done to people for whatever reason that still gives me nightmares, and I've got four combat tours, with ALL that implies.  They are evil in a way you--wouldn't believe that either, so fuck it.
                            The world is not a nice place, and the Taliban are not freedom fighters.  They were and are joined at the hip with Al Quaeda and Pakistani Taliban.  The only difference between them is the scope and loftyness of their goals.  We, the US, are not totally innocent.  I've never thought that, but I've also never seen anybody wearing a US uniform do anything illegal.  Maybe it's because I had good leadership who knew what they wanted from their soldiers and ensured that we as soldiers and leaders knew what was expected of us and why.  I know the dark places the soul can go, but I never took anyone with me, whether it was my Soldiers, leaders, civilians, or the other people.

                            If you believe that there is no cause at all worth war, well, that's a valid position that I can understand and honor.  Really.  I dont' agree with it, being a Soldier and all, but I can honor and respect it.  If you believe however that there may be a time when war is necessary as a perogative of the state, well--where do you draw the line?  Because we were attacked by these people's guests and ideological supporters and fellow travellers.  They will return the country to the exact same conditions, giving support and shelter, in exchange for military and technical support that they were receiving before 9/11.
                            I'm retired from the service now.  I won't be going back, and that thought doesn't bother me one bit.  My friends who are combat vets who are going back aren't happy but they've been handed a mission and they'll do it to the best of their abilities.  The newbies are, well, newbies.  My buddies will do their best to to train and lead them and bring them home with their bodies and honor intact.
                            None of us who has seen war needs a book to tell us that it's bad shit that is best avoided.  But we also don't need a book to tell us that if we don't end this situation correctly, our children will be dealing with it again and again and again.  As a friend of mine said recently, "my soul's already damaged.  maybe I can protect my son's."
                            I don't need anyone's respect on this.  It would be nice, but we don't get that round these parts these days.  It's not too much to ask that people don't spit in our (virtual) faces, though is it?  I mean really?  I'm not talking about you here.  I've never seen you say anything that was cruel or condescending.  Misinformed maybe, but not vicious.  I was cruel to you upthread.  I'm sorry.  I'll try to be a little more understanding and tolerant in the future, and maybe count to 10 before I hit the 'post' button.

                            Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

                            by soonergrunt on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 09:23:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are spouting .... dumbassery (0+ / 0-)

                            to borrow from your lexicon.

                            I was for Hillary Clinton?

                            In what world?

                            My diaries and comments are full of unadulterated disgust for her. I campaigned for Tasini, her primary opponent, in 2006. I voted for the Green, Howie Whozeewotzee (kind of a dull Green) when she, of course, prevailed. I hated her warmongering behavior around Iraq... and her steadfast refusal to meet with even one antiwar group (no one, but no one, does psychological fortress walls like she does) even though one of her main offices was in the city, the boro, where half a million marched twice, over a few weeks time, against the war she was so batshite stupid to support.

                            "Ive always been for regime change" (she cooed, on MTP just before the noxious Senate IWR vote) - signaling how most of her colleagues would crap out...

                            No, not even close to a fan.

                            Nice try at twisting, though.

                            Havent read past that gem... wonder what else is in the pretzel bin...

                            Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                            by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 09:44:39 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, so you're a green? (0+ / 0-)

                            so tell--wtf on a blog dedicated to electing people who piss you off?
                            Christ, why not hang out on the RNC blog?
                            You're not one of those pathetic Nader voters from 2000 who's still pissed off but knows in your heart of hearts that he never stood a chance and hates the fact that a significant number of dems blame you for that fiasco of splitting the vote in Florida which gave us Bush for 8 years and whenever people figure out that you were a Nader person they blame you for the war in Iraq are you?  Cause if you are one of them, I just want you to know that my five friends that died there--not your fault.  Not wholly, anyway.

                            Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

                            by soonergrunt on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 10:17:06 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ugh! I voted 4 a Green. (0+ / 0-)

                            Voting for a Green does not make me a Green. Voted for a Green over Hillary. That was after she helped send your friends to die in Iraq.

                            I wish the Greens were more doable... but they are not.

                            I didnt vote for Nader, but I find him to be spot on re many issues and am certainly not a Nader Hater.

                            Sorry about your friends... and anyone they may have harmed. Nope, not qualified for the Nader vote guilt trip rap... not even partially. But hey, I voted for Clinton, and he killed a ton of Iraqis with sanctions... what the hell... just cant avoid the taint, can we?

                            Anything else you need cleared up, ProudToBeAnAmerican? Anywhere else you think I ought to go besides Redstate...? Let me guess: Hell? Dont worry... I take long breaks from this place... you can look forward to my absence.

                            I thought you were veering into reasonable earlier, but I see you swing in and out.

                            Okay... whatever. Im out.

                            Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                            by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 10:43:14 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Don't let the door hit you in the ass (0+ / 0-)

                            we don't want the door marred or damaged after all.

                            Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

                            by soonergrunt on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 06:04:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  when I said I should just wait before posting (0+ / 0-)

                            this was one of those times.

                            Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

                            by soonergrunt on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 04:05:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I never demonized the troops... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soonergrunt, newfie

                            Maybe you started out less reasonably (I read thru and see you became more reasonable toward the end of your post... thank you), spurred by the comment that I was "demonizing" the troops... (snpsmom's)

                            I dont revere the military... that's all. I dont like how its used, misused.

                            Sure, if there is a true threat to us, I hope you (active) can help us, do a job I can support. I cant support most of the wars or covert actions that are initiated by the political leadership.

                            Good on you, if you have been careful to be decent, in your tours overseas, good on those who are... I do not say everyone is out for blood... but there are those who havent been decent, let's just get that on the table. There has been unjustifiable aggression and cruelty... beyond the sanctioned aggression and cruelty of war, even.

                            I have no love for the Taliban. I loathe their cruelty and backwardness, their authoritarianism. I dont have illusions about the inhumane behaviors of other nation's leaders, either, over history.. there's a long queue... I dont know why you think I do.

                            Our topic was the lack of consciousness in America over what our military actions do to the "other"... I am not the first to take note of the blight of American exceptionalism... nor of how, as a superpower, and now the sole superpower, might makes right has been behind many of the fancy attempts to justify naked, unjustified aggression.

                            Afghanistan was supposed to be a decisive war of defense against a horrendous attack, that, yes, I was here to see and smell and live thru on 9/11. I live downtown. It turned into a quagmire with poor results, early on (nothing like a huge preventive VANITY war to help that already difficult effort) and a quagmire only gets quaggier as time drags on, nature of the beast.

                            Immediately following the attack, I felt our nation's immense power, and that thru it, a sort of groundbreaking international effort to quash al Qaeda, the Taliban's assistance of it, was possible and desireable, but thru massive international cooperation, intelligence, strategies other than all out war... then I was argued into thinking attacking back thru conventional war was the only way... I later came to think that my initial response was probably the right one... but one we as humans, as a nation, certainly, are not primed to achieve. To war we shall go! First, last, always...

                            Have to say that, knowing your profession would shrink, that a lot of the military would be out of jobs if we didnt keep this machine going, I would call that a good thing... we would just have to get more creative, put our little heads toward achieving better than making a living on killing... Given all that we can do, that is certainly not outside our reach... just our motivation and conditioning...

                            Ah well... all the best to you... enjoy your retirement. Not against you at all...

                            Good night... (EST is a bitch!)

                            Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                            by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 10:27:45 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you for reading the whole thing (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            and for your kind words.
                            Believe me when I tell you that I know that people do bad shit.  Some people seem to think that they have the right to do whatever they want.
                            I diary about such guys frequently.  They are a stain on the collective honor of my profession.
                            As far as the size of the Army--I don't have a problem with paring it down.  Hell, I think if we were to do that, it would free up resources for other things I care about, and more importantly, I think that there's be less of the world police crap that the rest of the world claims to hate but really wants us to do.  If we do it, then they don't have to actually work for peace or whatever.  They can let the situation fester like Somalia and Bosnia and then spend a bunch of time whining about a lack of US leadership for them not doing what they felt needed doing in the first place.

                            Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

                            by soonergrunt on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 06:27:57 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "Voluntary" (0+ / 0-)

                            I suppose it is for some. Many of the "volunteers" are refugees from poverty, hopelessness and abuse. What would you do to get out of circumstances like those? Join the military? That's what many "volunteers" do because they have no real choice and as dancewatter said, we make it honorable. Martin Luther King Jr. spoke on it in the last days of his life. He was speaking about Viet Nam, but it could just as well have been today. War is mostly fueled with the lives of young men and women who will do anything to escape the poverty and hopelessness we allow here in the "land of opportunity." Demonizing them or calling them evil because they are trying to make a better life for themselves is just not ok.

                          •  not true (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:


                   (warning: heritage foundation)

                            i'll loof for better-quality articles and post them here.

                          •  How did I demonize them? (0+ / 0-)

                            You can bet others will though (who dont wear our nationalistic lenses)... given that they are invading, occupying, killing and maiming... without just cause (or are we not to state those unfortunate facts?)

                            It's all so sick and sickening. What they do to others is horrid. What happens to them is horrid. But then, there they go. And hey, some will get lucky and just kill... time... in some base somewhere. They wont be wearing steel for legs... or some stitched together skin mask for a face... or whatever. Dead. Fucked up for life.  Among the invaded and occupied, some civilians and fighters will get lucky too - they wont be, say, among the several millions of Iraqis who have been killed, maimed, displaced, made to suffer the rest of their lives... and WHY?

                            If my son or daughter had signed up, I would urge them to go to prison rather than serve in our corrupt wars. Run to Canada... dont go.

                            But I cant stop them. Or their parents and others from glorifying their "service" and applauding our wars and supporting the idiots who send them off to war... over their idiotic ideology and/or stupidity and/or greed and/or ego-madness from which these wars spring.

                            I cant stop them. Off they go and on and on they go, despite my protests and emails and calls and grief over the never-ending never-learning of the lessons.

                            I'm sorry. I cant get with the program. It's too corrupt.

                            Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                            by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 08:51:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  yes, I do know people in the military (0+ / 0-)

                          not that it has anything to do with anything.

                          They are not VICTIMS, they are VOLUNTEERS.  Some join for good reasons, some for bad reasons, but unlike the civilians THEY HAVE A CHOICE.

                          They also have training, equipment, protection, and other options besides being in a war zone.... AND they have medical care, homes, family, friends, various infrastructure to return to, provided they survive -- which is a LOT more likely for them than for civilians.

                          War cannot be waged to instill any virtue, including democracy or the liberation of women. - Chris Hedges

                          by dancewater on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 09:24:34 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Welcome back, DANCEWATER! (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NYCee, dancewater, Granny Doc, monroematt

                missed you terribly.

                Your series What War Brings is favorited on my browser.

                With the recent "victories"[sic] in Afghanistan, and given the taunting by Cheney and other sadists, many on the left are giving high-fives as if "our guy" Obama is wearing a codpiece and standing on the deck of a battleship, without any consideration that there will be no victory in Afghanistan.

                "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - some wise guy, a long time ago

              •  I completely agree with your take on the IGTNT (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NYCee, dancewater, Granny Doc, monroematt


                They promote the Myth of War that Hedges talks about in his book, "war is a force that gives us meaning"

        •  Imagine the outrage if we were invaded... (0+ / 0-)

          Not just attacked, but ongoing invaded and occupied...

          There are quite a few who might consider us deserving...

          And yet we...

          Just dont get what they endure...

          Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

          by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 06:59:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I read the first line and thought... (0+ / 0-)

        Chris Hedges.


        Who is listening?

        Never seem to learn...

        Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

        by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 06:56:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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