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View Diary: Breaking!!! People Die in War!!! (151 comments)

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  •  Tell me something honestly (2+ / 0-)
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    newfie, snpsmom

    What is with this hating on the US?  I mean really.  During the cold war the russians were at least as bad as we were if not worse, and there's plenty of evidence that they never really stopped, at least in what they call the 'near abroad.'
    The French pulled all sorts of heinous shit all over Africa, and still are.  The Chinese play slap-and-tickle all over asia, nobody ever complains, least of all you.
    When's the last time you wrote a diary about Tibet?  Never, from the look of your diary history.
    That's OK as far as it goes, but after looking at that you seem more pissed off about not getting the candidate you wanted than anything else.  You even wrote a diary about how the Bush administration left us open to an Al Quaeda nuclear bomb attack.  That was funny, by the way.
    OK, look, I get it.  You're an American and you're more concerned with American leadership.  That's what you would say if I wasn't beating you to it right now.  You were pissed because Howard Dean wasn't the candidate in 2004 and then later because Hillary Clinton wasn't the candidate after the convention in 2008, even though you spent a lot of the intervening time bashing her.  Hillary wouldn't be doing Afghanistan any different if she governed like she said she would when campaigning, and we don't really know how Dr. Dean would've dealt with Afghanistan.  It's for damn sure he would've gotten us out of Iraq ASAP, and I'd have cheered roundly for that one.
    It does seem that nothing the President does is going to work for you, but I hope that I'm reading that wrong.
    I've been doing the military thing for over twenty years now, and I've never heard anybody in uniform ever say that we were doing whatever we were doing because we can.  I've heard a lot of bitching in uniform about how the rest of the world looks to us to solve the problems they won't or can't.
    Afghanistan wasn't something we did just for shits and grins.  You're user name indicates that you're from New York, so you should be able to figure this out without a lot of help.
    I never saw anybody ever engage the enemy and shout "take that, in the name of US foreign policy!"
    Matter of fact, I never knew anyone who wanted to do anything other than the mission directly in front of them and complete it with all their troops alive.  We don't roar into town and shoot the shit out of everything we see.  We try to be careful about what we do.
    I don't know what happened with that airstrike or how they got the idea that they were bad guys in those trucks.  You don't either, by the way.  Here's something for you to think about.  Did you ever notice that when it's a US plane, they say "a US plane"?  I'll bet you didn't know that there are other countries there that have aircraft, and US planes are the only ones ever identified.  Sometimes, the news says "aircraft from US-led coalition."  The region where that strike took place was in the British sector.  They have strike aircraft and helicopter gunships.  Work it out.  Maybe you should go and complain to them.  They have a consulate in NYC.  See, we give them political cover by doing that.  You didn't honestly think we were the only ones who made mistakes over there, did you?

    Now, I'm not going to tell you about my personal experiences with how bad the Taliban are.  You won't believe me for one, and you don't give any indication of caring for another, so I'll save us both the trouble except to say that I've seen shit that they've done to people for whatever reason that still gives me nightmares, and I've got four combat tours, with ALL that implies.  They are evil in a way you--wouldn't believe that either, so fuck it.
    The world is not a nice place, and the Taliban are not freedom fighters.  They were and are joined at the hip with Al Quaeda and Pakistani Taliban.  The only difference between them is the scope and loftyness of their goals.  We, the US, are not totally innocent.  I've never thought that, but I've also never seen anybody wearing a US uniform do anything illegal.  Maybe it's because I had good leadership who knew what they wanted from their soldiers and ensured that we as soldiers and leaders knew what was expected of us and why.  I know the dark places the soul can go, but I never took anyone with me, whether it was my Soldiers, leaders, civilians, or the other people.

    If you believe that there is no cause at all worth war, well, that's a valid position that I can understand and honor.  Really.  I dont' agree with it, being a Soldier and all, but I can honor and respect it.  If you believe however that there may be a time when war is necessary as a perogative of the state, well--where do you draw the line?  Because we were attacked by these people's guests and ideological supporters and fellow travellers.  They will return the country to the exact same conditions, giving support and shelter, in exchange for military and technical support that they were receiving before 9/11.
    I'm retired from the service now.  I won't be going back, and that thought doesn't bother me one bit.  My friends who are combat vets who are going back aren't happy but they've been handed a mission and they'll do it to the best of their abilities.  The newbies are, well, newbies.  My buddies will do their best to to train and lead them and bring them home with their bodies and honor intact.
    None of us who has seen war needs a book to tell us that it's bad shit that is best avoided.  But we also don't need a book to tell us that if we don't end this situation correctly, our children will be dealing with it again and again and again.  As a friend of mine said recently, "my soul's already damaged.  maybe I can protect my son's."
    I don't need anyone's respect on this.  It would be nice, but we don't get that round these parts these days.  It's not too much to ask that people don't spit in our (virtual) faces, though is it?  I mean really?  I'm not talking about you here.  I've never seen you say anything that was cruel or condescending.  Misinformed maybe, but not vicious.  I was cruel to you upthread.  I'm sorry.  I'll try to be a little more understanding and tolerant in the future, and maybe count to 10 before I hit the 'post' button.

    Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

    by soonergrunt on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 09:23:23 PM PST

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    •  You are spouting .... dumbassery (0+ / 0-)

      to borrow from your lexicon.

      I was for Hillary Clinton?

      In what world?

      My diaries and comments are full of unadulterated disgust for her. I campaigned for Tasini, her primary opponent, in 2006. I voted for the Green, Howie Whozeewotzee (kind of a dull Green) when she, of course, prevailed. I hated her warmongering behavior around Iraq... and her steadfast refusal to meet with even one antiwar group (no one, but no one, does psychological fortress walls like she does) even though one of her main offices was in the city, the boro, where half a million marched twice, over a few weeks time, against the war she was so batshite stupid to support.

      "Ive always been for regime change" (she cooed, on MTP just before the noxious Senate IWR vote) - signaling how most of her colleagues would crap out...

      No, not even close to a fan.

      Nice try at twisting, though.

      Havent read past that gem... wonder what else is in the pretzel bin...

      Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

      by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 09:44:39 PM PST

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      •  Oh, so you're a green? (0+ / 0-)

        so tell--wtf on a blog dedicated to electing people who piss you off?
        Christ, why not hang out on the RNC blog?
        You're not one of those pathetic Nader voters from 2000 who's still pissed off but knows in your heart of hearts that he never stood a chance and hates the fact that a significant number of dems blame you for that fiasco of splitting the vote in Florida which gave us Bush for 8 years and whenever people figure out that you were a Nader person they blame you for the war in Iraq are you?  Cause if you are one of them, I just want you to know that my five friends that died there--not your fault.  Not wholly, anyway.

        Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

        by soonergrunt on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 10:17:06 PM PST

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        •  Ugh! I voted 4 a Green. (0+ / 0-)

          Voting for a Green does not make me a Green. Voted for a Green over Hillary. That was after she helped send your friends to die in Iraq.

          I wish the Greens were more doable... but they are not.

          I didnt vote for Nader, but I find him to be spot on re many issues and am certainly not a Nader Hater.

          Sorry about your friends... and anyone they may have harmed. Nope, not qualified for the Nader vote guilt trip rap... not even partially. But hey, I voted for Clinton, and he killed a ton of Iraqis with sanctions... what the hell... just cant avoid the taint, can we?

          Anything else you need cleared up, ProudToBeAnAmerican? Anywhere else you think I ought to go besides Redstate...? Let me guess: Hell? Dont worry... I take long breaks from this place... you can look forward to my absence.

          I thought you were veering into reasonable earlier, but I see you swing in and out.

          Okay... whatever. Im out.

          Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

          by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 10:43:14 PM PST

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    •  I never demonized the troops... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soonergrunt, newfie

      Maybe you started out less reasonably (I read thru and see you became more reasonable toward the end of your post... thank you), spurred by the comment that I was "demonizing" the troops... (snpsmom's)

      I dont revere the military... that's all. I dont like how its used, misused.

      Sure, if there is a true threat to us, I hope you (active) can help us, do a job I can support. I cant support most of the wars or covert actions that are initiated by the political leadership.

      Good on you, if you have been careful to be decent, in your tours overseas, good on those who are... I do not say everyone is out for blood... but there are those who havent been decent, let's just get that on the table. There has been unjustifiable aggression and cruelty... beyond the sanctioned aggression and cruelty of war, even.

      I have no love for the Taliban. I loathe their cruelty and backwardness, their authoritarianism. I dont have illusions about the inhumane behaviors of other nation's leaders, either, over history.. there's a long queue... I dont know why you think I do.

      Our topic was the lack of consciousness in America over what our military actions do to the "other"... I am not the first to take note of the blight of American exceptionalism... nor of how, as a superpower, and now the sole superpower, might makes right has been behind many of the fancy attempts to justify naked, unjustified aggression.

      Afghanistan was supposed to be a decisive war of defense against a horrendous attack, that, yes, I was here to see and smell and live thru on 9/11. I live downtown. It turned into a quagmire with poor results, early on (nothing like a huge preventive VANITY war to help that already difficult effort) and a quagmire only gets quaggier as time drags on, nature of the beast.

      Immediately following the attack, I felt our nation's immense power, and that thru it, a sort of groundbreaking international effort to quash al Qaeda, the Taliban's assistance of it, was possible and desireable, but thru massive international cooperation, intelligence, strategies other than all out war... then I was argued into thinking attacking back thru conventional war was the only way... I later came to think that my initial response was probably the right one... but one we as humans, as a nation, certainly, are not primed to achieve. To war we shall go! First, last, always...

      Have to say that, knowing your profession would shrink, that a lot of the military would be out of jobs if we didnt keep this machine going, I would call that a good thing... we would just have to get more creative, put our little heads toward achieving better than making a living on killing... Given all that we can do, that is certainly not outside our reach... just our motivation and conditioning...

      Ah well... all the best to you... enjoy your retirement. Not against you at all...

      Good night... (EST is a bitch!)

      Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

      by NYCee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 at 10:27:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for reading the whole thing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NYCee

        and for your kind words.
        Believe me when I tell you that I know that people do bad shit.  Some people seem to think that they have the right to do whatever they want.
        I diary about such guys frequently.  They are a stain on the collective honor of my profession.
        As far as the size of the Army--I don't have a problem with paring it down.  Hell, I think if we were to do that, it would free up resources for other things I care about, and more importantly, I think that there's be less of the world police crap that the rest of the world claims to hate but really wants us to do.  If we do it, then they don't have to actually work for peace or whatever.  They can let the situation fester like Somalia and Bosnia and then spend a bunch of time whining about a lack of US leadership for them not doing what they felt needed doing in the first place.

        Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

        by soonergrunt on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 06:27:57 AM PST

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