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View Diary: FORK IT! Fine me, tax me, whatever, but I ain't gonna pay (1532 comments)

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  •  FUNDING IT IS NOT PROVIDING IT. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alumbrados, kurt, bigchin, J M F, Johnny Q, FistJab

    We are talking about funding here.

    Private insurers take up to 30 percent of each dollar, keep it, buy corporate jets with it, and deliver NO CARE for those dollars.

    That's the issue.

    Actually providing care is a private thing, and most of us like it that way.

    IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

    by potatohead on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 09:57:10 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I am specifically responding to the claim that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jonnie rae

      the bill "privatizes" health care in America.  Health care in America has always been a private enterprise.  

      As for your point, I agree with you.  But I do believe the bill does address that point by requiring that profit margins do not exceed a certain percentage.  There are mandates that require "x" percentage of each dollar be used/spent on health care.

      Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

      by lighttheway on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05:36 PM PST

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      •  No cost control on overall price (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt

        No real effective dilution check.

        No real check on fees, and other "value added" types of charges.

        That percentage is actually only a small check on their overall operating cost.

        Medicare is a few percent.  They are 30.  That's a 10x cost delta.

        Lowering it to 20 percent, plus whatever costs they can move onto the subscriber will equal a few percent, and probably won't equal the rate increase for the next few years before it all kicks in, meaning it never pays off, just limits the damage some.

        That's what the competition based cost control is for.

        IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

        by potatohead on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 10:08:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Post a link that shows they have a (0+ / 0-)

          30 % profit margin.  This is contradictory to what I have seen.

          The plan does not limit it to 20 %, unless that is changed.  I admit that I am not the most up to date on the exact figures, but my understanding that the margins on group plans and individual plans are 10 % for one of them and 15 % for the other.  

          And I don't disagree with anything else you have said.  But alot of people are saying things and I simply question where they are getting their information.  I am seeing things in this thread that I have never seen in anything else that I have read on the subject.

          Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

          by lighttheway on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 10:25:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here potato: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jonnie rae

            Wild claims here make for good narrative, but in the end it does not further your cause or argument.  Finding this from US News took me all of 10 seconds.  To make sure it was correct, I opened different links and found the same info:

            Overall, the profit margin for health insurance companies was a modest 3.4 percent over the past year, according to data provided by Morningstar. That ranks 87th out of 215 industries and slightly above the median of 2.2 percent. By this measure, the most profitable industry over the past year has been beverages, with a 25.9 percent profit margin. Right behind that were healthcare real-estate trusts (firms that are basically the landlords for hospitals and healthcare facilities) and application-software (think Windows). The worst performer was copper, with a profit margin of minus 56.6 percent.

            Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

            by lighttheway on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 10:29:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Operating costs are 30 percent. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kurt, J M F, Indieman, lighttheway

              Profit is, in fact, on par with the TOTAL operating costs of Medicare; namely, a few percent.

              READ MY POST.  I DID NOT SAY PROFIT, I SAID OPERATING COSTS.

              Private insurers operate at 20 to 30 percent total overhead, a few percent of which is profit.

              Medicare, for example, along with the VA operate at a few percent TOTAL overhead, with NO PROFIT.

              Those costs are high executive salaries, corporate jets, payments to share holders, expensive office space, and many other inefficiencies that are perfectly acceptable behavior for companies who sell luxury items, that HAVE VALUE.

              All private insurers do is move money around, like money changers, and the profit they keep gives us NO VALUE.

              Comparing profit to TOTAL operating cost of Medicare is a very often cited distortion in this debate, and has been debunked many times.

              We GET NO VALUE for almost 1 out of every three dollars consumed by private insurers.  If you scale that out multiplied by all the subsidies we will be paying, the economic drain on the nation will be significant, and those extra profits and operating dollars are exactly why the private insurers have NO PROBLEM with a MANDATE, unless they actually have to compete against a public option that won't have those thick operating costs, then it's ugly for them.

              This is why many of us are opposed to the mandate only, because we do not see the social justice in handing nearly 1 out of every three dollars to private insurers, just because they happen to exist.  We want value for that, like most other nations, who pay HALF of what we do RIGHT NOW.

              IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

              by potatohead on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 11:01:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's an order of magnitude delta on cost (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lighttheway

                roughly 10x

                We can't have a factor like that playing into the subsidies that we use tax dollars for, and harbor any reasonable expectation of cost savings.

                IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

                by potatohead on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 11:03:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

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