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View Diary: Open Thread: Climate-Change Skeptics (240 comments)

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  •  We have to start addressing the problem in (5+ / 0-)

    terms of quality of life instead of the bottom line.

    When  we talk of costs, we trigger bottom line thinking - profit. We get pushed into an argument over money.

    We should not even be there.

    Sometimes maintaining quality of life means sacrificing. Sometimes it means working together.  

    It's amazing how the cost frame makes the idea of sacrifice for the common good and working together a politically untenable position.

    We've got to get our heads around this particular framing issue.  

    Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

    by k9disc on Fri Mar 05, 2010 at 11:03:08 PM PST

    •  unfortunately such "have to" statements are (0+ / 0-)

      just that -- "statements". They don't effect much action. It will take too long to convince enough to do what you or any of us think they "should do". Better to  try to try to construct mechanisms such as pollution trade protocols that, inadequate though they may be, are better than spinning wheels.

      •  Yea, sure, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mataliandy, dorkenergy, thethinveil

        just feed the beast it's candy and get more pragmatists into the machine.

        We can't have Democratic action without an activated populace. You can't activate the populace by playing around with the bottom line and using Bottom Line thinking. You can only keep them down and depress turn out.

        Finance is boring for a reason. There is no imagination.

        Quality of life arguments, rhetoric and framing of issues totally changes that dynamic.

        It's essentially what Obama, the campaigner did. Not so much in his day job, but he can do it.

        He chooses not to. He takes the center, giving voice to all sides of an argument, then doing the shrewd bottom line action necessary to execute.

        It's a cold and  calculating political style, and I think it depresses the electorate.

        But, point is that you can't lead without inspiring, and Democrats are never going to inspire when they're talking about bottom line shit like tax cuts and rebates and such.

        We need better tax policy. Fully funded fire departments. Not affordable access to health insurance, but real life Health care.

        When I'm sick I want to be healed.  

        Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

        Can you not see the irony and the proof that rhetoric and framing make policy:

        In talking about Healthcare it is ridiculous to state, "When I am sick I want to be Healed" - it isn't even germane to the argument.

        And you're not alone in thinking that framing doesn't 'effect much action'.

        peace

        Nobody

        Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

        by k9disc on Fri Mar 05, 2010 at 11:34:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My concern is that (0+ / 0-)

          Quality of life arguments, rhetoric and framing of issues

          while arguably effective on certain issues (e.g., civil rights, issues framed in terms of basic instincts such as fear), they are less effective when asking people to spend significant time and/or $ in visible increments.

          For environmental issues with long-term, not easily perceivable consequences and visible personal/corporate costs, framing hasn't helped much so far.

          Pragma and rhetoric both have their place. Use as appropriate.

          •  I would address your concern with my point. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dorkenergy, thethinveil

            That the rhetoric and framing that we choose to use and have chosen to use since the Civil Rights era is responsible for that.

            Look at historical speeches. There is no Bottom Line, transactional, money based rhetoric.

            Pre-Nixon, it's pretty much all quality of life, personal, human, empathetic and emotive stuff.

            Shit, Even the republicans knew that (Party Platform during the 50s) they had to speak in terms of quality of life.

            Look at social issues for Republicans - abortion, immigration, GLBT - all pitched in terms of quality of life.

            Even Economics is pitched on quality of life -free markets are about freedom, they're not about dollars and cents.

            Look at Deregulation they mention the money saved, but the argument is about freedom - without these deregulatory regimes we will lose freedom.

            Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

            by k9disc on Sat Mar 06, 2010 at 02:47:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  going thru your examples... (0+ / 0-)

              immigration was framed in terms of fear of others
              GLBT and abortion framed (largely) in terms of fear of god
              free markets in terms of fear of shackles

              All these are easily personalized fears.

              Bush's appeal to "heart" (whether by word or touching his chest) was sufficiently effective on various issues in a personal way.

              On climate change, how can that be done? Per mataliandy below:

              until there are faces and stories that describe climate change (or any other issue) in a way that people can relate to, there will be no serious motion.

              BTW, I'm not saying the framing has to be done in $. I was noting that market mechanisms have been applied with some success to accomplish environmental benefit (and they do that despite my modest personal aversion to them).

        •  As I like to say (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          k9disc, Purple Priestess, dorkenergy

          "No one ever gave their heart to a number."

          We can focus on costs and stats all we want, but until there are faces and stories that describe climate change (or any other issue) in a way that people can relate to, there will be no serious motion.

          •  Good Diary and fleshing out the idea (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thethinveil

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            I riffed a bit in comments...
            Let me know what you think...

            Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

            by k9disc on Sat Mar 06, 2010 at 02:37:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Great if we can create that database ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mataliandy

            on climate change as has been done for other environmental issues, e.g., anti-nuclear power. The framing there was in terms of fear of "radiation", a scary word with photos of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, ... with personalization of that fear by location -- NIMBY for the reactors and NIMBY for the waste transport and storage.

            What other environmental examples do we have to rival the effectiveness of that framing?

            For climate change, so far the stories, photos are from distant places, e.g., Kilimanjaro, Himalayas re glacier recession with reference to effect on agriculture.

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