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View Diary: Sell! Buy! Rebel! 'Capitalism: A Love Story' Is Out Today on DVD (...and what is up with Wal-Mart?)! (261 comments)

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  •  i know capitalism. Mike's film doesn't touch it. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hind2, stanjz, notwisconsin
    •  Boo yah!! Good for you. Now what?? eom (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cville townie
      •  the point is, mike's films are more emotional (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hind2, poxonyou, longislandny, stanjz

        than educational.  they're great to get you mad, but with the superficial knowledge that you receive from his film -- note that he didn't cover the history of the unions (which are typically bashed by the Right), the roots of capitalism, alternative economic models, didn't include any academics who have studied the limits and shortcomings of capitalism or neoliberalism --hell, he could have interviewed Naomi klein (caveat: who is not an economist), but he didn't.  

        mike's films are for a certain audience.  they doing empower people with the knowledge to be able to fight the talking points of the other side, let alone the system.

        •  They're both, actually. Just becasue you like to (18+ / 0-)

          digest dry sand that most people would not take the time to do does not make then uninformative; they are quite educational in a way most anyone can relate to.  The emotional aspect simply means they will resonate (look up the word) with many more people and that may actually produce some shifting of the current fascist memes destroying our country.  

          Mike, like any filmmaker, has to walk a fine line in presenting real information in an entertaining fashion that will allow his movie to reach an audience and distribution in the very system he is critiqing; all in under two hours.  Quite a feat, really.

          The very fact that you are complaining what his movie left out, or how it should have been done, means it has been successful in sparking a discussion!  Moore has done his job.  Perhaps you should write a diary based on how his movie has inspired you to think of other aspects of our dysfunctional economic system.

          We the People in order to establish Justice, Defense, Welfare, Liberty do establish the US of A. That is what America is about!

          by FightTheFuture on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 06:45:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  but that's just it: Mike muddies the discourse on (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hind2, poxonyou, divineorder, stanjz

            the merits and limits of Capitalism.  

            He fucked it up royally by conflating vaguely familiar concepts for his audience and not addressing the history or the complexity of the problems that exist today.

              •  how is this considered a good comeback? (1+ / 0-)
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                I will release a film when Moore is no longer an obese, over-opinionated-under-educated idiot.  

                But seriously can you not criticize the short comings of his film unless you make a film?  So I guess that means you can't criticize Glenn Becks tv show unless you have a TV show right?  Get real and grow the fuck up.  just because someone is raising legit questions doesn't mean you have to get defensive.

                •  Because it is a good comeback (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  It takes bravery and guts to do what Moore and other documentarians do. Oh, and by the way? Mike Moore was mayor at 18, a newspaper journalist and freelance when he decided to spend all his money on making Roger and Me.

                  Why don't you grow up and get off your defenses.

                  Why yes, I am Catholic.

                  by ems97007 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 01:17:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  so sayz you. again. meh (0+ / 0-)

              We wanted a Howard Dean HC bill - we got a Lieberman HC bill. Ugh

              by JVolvo on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 08:48:29 AM PST

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            •  No, he didn't. Capitalism is a dangerous tool (0+ / 0-)

              and we are now being eaten alive by its more insidious downsides which come about from increasing deregulation, globalization and ignorance of what Adam Smith intended about the responsibilities of the players in Capitalism.

              When we are being so royally fucked by capitalism unbound, there really isn't a need to discuss "merits" of it.  It is time to get people pissed inorder to get them engaged.  His movie is not intended as a Master level course on economic theory.  It is intended to show people how we are loosing our country, our democracy, our very futures, all for greed which is a poisonous byproduct of capitalism if it is not addressed.

              What we need is more followup on this.  The only thing I see in the media, besides liberal mags (Nation, American Progressive, etc.) and blogs is the occasional Frontline and they do not take it on anywhere near what Michael did.  So, the fact he did this movie and got it some play is an astounding feat in a nation of ignorant, distracted scared and fucked fools.  

              So, go write some diaries.  you had good points.  Stop whining on what Michael missed and instead use Moore's movie as a launching pad to write about what else we should be aware of.  Oh, keep it accessible, that is, connectable,  to the average duh-merican who can no longer determine the difference between stealing a candy bar and stealing a country and doesn’t wretch at the thought of a Sarah Palin running for any office!!   It’s not as easy as it sounds.

              We the People in order to establish Justice, Defense, Welfare, Liberty do establish the US of A. That is what America is about!

              by FightTheFuture on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 01:58:13 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I'm with you primarydoc (9+ / 0-)

          I came out of Capitalism, a Love Story with a list of subjects as long as your arm that I had wished he covered.

          On the other hand, I think Moore is best best-selling documentarian in history for good reasons and foremost among them is: he knows his audience.  Face it, folks with educations in USA know NO history, nothing about the various progressive movements from the Depression of 1873 on, nothing about the various thoughts of the political economists, etc.

          Then there is this other problem.  Movies are hard to make--that's is why MOST of them are crap.  Below is a video outline of the topics I intended to cover in a serious documentary on economics.  

          Like I said--making movies is a lot harder than it looks. (sigh)

      •  mike's thesis is that capitalism isn't serving (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poxonyou, divineorder, tnproud2b

        the needs of the people and at the end of the film, he says, without cracking up, that capitalism (an economic ideology) needs to be replaced by democracy (a type of government).

        I don't disagree that social capital in America is low.  Or that there's a great disparity between the haves and haves not.  Or that a lot of people are unemployed, are uneducated, are disabled, are isolated.  Or that our nation has pursued incredibly costly foreign policy over the past 100 years which has caused us to overinvest in the military appartus at the expense ofdomestic priorities, even when research has shown:

        [money] spent on each of the domestic spending priorities will create sub-stantially more jobs within the U.S. economy than would the same [amount] spent on the military... investments in clean energy, health care and education create a much larger number of jobs across all pay ranges, including mid-range jobs (paying between $32,000 and $64,000) and high-paying jobs (paying over $64,000). Channeling funds into clean energy, health care and education in an effective way will therefore create significantly greater opportunities for decent employ-ment throughout the U.S. economy than spending the same amount of funds with the military.

        Mike never adequately explains to his audience how these problems are associated with capitalism.  

        He blames Reagan and shows how MerrillLynch's head influenced the ole Gipper.  He lauds FDR (and to his credit, unearths video of Roosevelt delivering his 2nd Bill of Rights Speech).  He shows Carter's Malaise Speech.  Others like Andrew Bacevich have done a much better job explaining the economic and security predicament that America is in.  Are Corporations more powerful today than they were 200 years ago?  Absolutely, but you never hear it from Mike.

        Mike wants to indict capitalism but doesn't cover it. A 2 hour film is inherently too short a time to cover all the necessary complexity, so it ends up being one emotional ride, at the end of which we're mad at big corporations for taking out insurance policies for their employees, we're mad at Congress for not standing up to Paulson and the Banks and for letting the corporations' contributions affect their legislation and voting, we're mad at credit card companies, etc.  All the while punctuated by his stunts that don't accomplish anything other than to have the audience vicariously live out their anger or vengeance.  

        It's very manipulative, and predictably, sells well to this community.

        •  Check out Gore's Assault on Reason. (0+ / 0-)

          You can purchase it or get it from your library.

          It's excellent.  A MILLION times better than anything Moore has done.

        •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          divineorder, thethinveil

          at the end of the film, he says, without cracking up, that capitalism (an economic ideology) needs to be replaced by democracy (a type of government).

          This makes a lot of sense, though. We need to replace the central role of economic ideology which the conventional wisdom has made untouchable, with a larger role for political process that answers to us. We need a larger role for the public sector where it can serve us better than the private sector, and more transparency in public life. All of these things go against the grain in America because we have painted ourselves into a capitalist corner.

          Like you need to be an economist to criticize the centrality of economic dogma in American policy? Economists have got a real racket going if that's the case. Well, we know they've got a racket going anyway...

          "You never know with Joe." -- well, now you do. Joe Lieberman, Douchebag-CT

          by cville townie on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 07:20:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  no, it doesnt. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            divineorder, tnproud2b

            How do you "replace the central role of economic ideology [what does that even mean??]... with a larger role for political process that answers to us"??

            Without question the power of the individual citizen in effecting change in government has diminished inversely to the increase in power of the corporation.   Bakan and Gore talk about that in detail, and much more clearly than Moore understands or is able to share with his audience.

            But that's DIFFERENT from a criticism of Capitalism.

            Do you understand what capitalism is?  Maybe that's where we should start.

            And no, you don't have to be an economist, but some rudimentary knowledge of economics helps, at least in not being fooled by people like Moore.

        •  if Moore really wanted to relate all the problems (1+ / 0-)
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          of contemporary society: poverty, disparity, national bankruptcy, unemployment, Kanye West and Taylor Swift [i kid, relax], to the system of capitalism, he should have explored it more academically instead of sloppily railing against the conflated monster of Corporations/neoliberalism/etc.

          The title of his film may have the word capitalism but the content reveals Moore's movie to be about something else... what that is, isn't clear.

          •  so, it seems per primarydocs tone... (1+ / 0-)
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            ...that i can't value Mr Moores work, and Mr. Gores work, and Mr. Burns work and.... for what they are?

            Mike has done a great job of getting a lot folks to be more aware. Such as the general awareness that folks WITH health insurance are getting hosed by the insurance companies. That health care problems are not just about the uninsured. That topic was not on the Peoples radar screen before Sicko imo.

            I am grateful for his efforts. The documentary niche is a tough one to work in.

        •  Sounds like the start of a interesting diary - (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim P, Karl Rover

          YOUR Diary.  Which will stand or fall on it's own merits.  As opposed to breaking out your little soapbox here in Mr. Moore's with a guaranteed large audience.  You've made your critique.  OK.

          Go write YOUR diary.

          We wanted a Howard Dean HC bill - we got a Lieberman HC bill. Ugh

          by JVolvo on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 08:52:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  He did show Economic Democracy in the film (0+ / 0-)

          The worker cooperative where the workers owned the factory and split the profits and made company decisions democratically.

          He probably should've emphasized it more, and when he brings up Nostalgia for the booming 50's and 60's it doesn't work as a good criticism of Capitalism.

          "I can hire 1/2 the working class to kill the other" -Railroad Tycoon Jay Gould

          by Johnnythebandit on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 09:15:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Top comment. nt (0+ / 0-)

          by divineorder on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 09:36:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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