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  •  I think I've landed a big fish! (3+ / 0-)
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    3goldens, Unduna, Tropical Depression

    See the comment just above yours.

    WOW!

    And thanks for your input and participation too.  I miss the old days where we felt mostly common cause around here.  I am heartened by the fact that old friends haven't changed their principles to fit the politics we are facing now.  :) thx for staying yourself.

    •  Thank you, old friend. (2+ / 0-)
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      inclusiveheart, 3goldens

      Wasn't much sure that I had been noticed, so that's quite nice, thank you.
      And thanks for getting round my typos this evening...

      So I went away for a minute to think.
      Because that is what I have to do when a seeming simplicity is actually the crux of a complexity ...

      Let's take your ranting truth and the truth as presented by your big fish (who is this fish? I will put them on my watch-those-waters-more-carefully list...)and stir it for a minute.

      When I was once very busy being assaulted for being a centrist, fighting hard for the soul of a radical college I much loved that did not, in the end, survive the turmoil well (and landed on the front page of the nyt for it all), my father (who trained me stay with my principles against all prevailing winds) said to me that

      Straddling the fence
      and racking your balls
      is the only place to be
      because it is the only place to See

      So. I had to think. And you and your big fish sent me there, so yes, indeed.

      And so this is another simplicity, but maybe it is useful:

      "Centrist" and "moderate" have been appropriated.

      The true centrist Sees both sides and wants to make of them an actionable outcome. They travel, back and forth, investigating, and then they sit and rack their brains and train their sights on what might be True for everyone involved.
      The true centrist is a Negotiator, and we may need to rename them as such.
      And the negotiator is usually seen as holding low ground, because in most ways they must, and they get dirtied doing it. Usually.

      But the term "centrist" has been appropriated by those who want to do none of the above. The term has been appropriated by those who want to Undo both sides, not make a can do from both of them.

      The appropriators want to compromise the action away into nothing, and so they sit, unmoved and want hold the high ground and stay completely clean while doing it.

      So we can easily discriminate between the two, and we must.
      I see very, very few negotiators afoot, save one, and he is, in fact, getting quite dirty. :) By us, maybe, on occasion? Mmm.
      We'll see, because he is our leader, we can see where he goes rather easily...

      But I, for one, will be using the terms much more carefully, and will be encouraging others to as well.
      I am now watching, and I like doing that.

      "So," I will say, "where is the negotiating? Where is the movement? What is being bravely seen, and what are we being asked to ignore, to clean?".

      So, at least, that seems like a start to something interesting.

      Thanks, inclusiveheart. I hope this means something to you, and doesn't seem like more around and around we go, because I think your funny has taken us into a workable place.

      "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

      by Unduna on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 06:49:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Simpler: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      inclusiveheart

      We have a line of questioning with which to assault the supposed centrist.

      And we should assault, as often as possible.

      And when we find a possible negotiator, look more closely at the dirt.

      "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

      by Unduna on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 07:20:04 PM PST

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    •  Wait. Since you can't negotiate with the GOP, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      inclusiveheart

      the only thing that I am aware of to be negotiated, at this point, is between the discordant views of the rational public, one sector of which is lacking any representation at the table (other than stonewalling).

      So there, again, is another indicator that now is the time to actually get some unadulterated progressive policies put into place.
      The messaging for that would be very easy and very damaging to the GOP:
      "Your representatives won't sit at the table, they are not negotiating for you, so we are reduced to doing what we think best, and here is where we tried to think of those of you who we know object..." And wouldn't that be darling of us...

      So we return to the beginning.
      In such an environment, a "centrist" almost can't be anything but what we suspect; they are inherently worthless because even a well-intentioned one, rare breed that they are, doesn't have a job to do, unless it involves mere second guessing and cherry picking (hello).
      And: what with the GOP narrative being so lame (I mean, really, sitting duck lame) and the views of the rational American public being supremely open to another narrative....what the hell is Obama doing, excepting wasting the moments as fast as they arrive.
      Ack.

      So I must conclude that your big fish is an idealist, operating from another time when the opposition was actually at the table and attempting to be rational.

      What, are we supposed to start guessing what a rational opposition would say? I mean it - are we to do that? Why?

      (Who is your big fish, anyway....I am apparently an idiot on that one...)

      So screw everything I essentially said, You Are Right.

      Doesn't it suck to be right.  

      "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

      by Unduna on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:42:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I worked for a Republican Senator. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, Unduna

        He was forced out by the "radicals" in the Reagan era who don't hold a candle to the radicals we know now.  In any case, I think I know what a rational and principled moderate would say in a lot of these cases.  My guy supported vigorously programs like Welfare, SS and Medicare.  He looks like a progressive Democrat compared to a lot of Democrats we are working with these days.

        My satire wasn't targeted at all moderates as much as the kind that we see operating today whose m.o. is basically purely ideological and devoid of reality or principle on issues.  They moderate "just because", not because in a particular instance it makes sense.  And because they have no ability to assess each issue as unique and develop solutions based on the issues first and ideology second, they act out in a random and irrational fashion to just about everything.  The "someone wants to wear bright colors and they demand pastels just because that's moderation - even though it doesn't really matter whether it is bright or pastel in that instance - they insist anyway" thing.  But maybe it does - maybe the person needs to wear bright colors for some reason, but they ignore that factor because it undermines their desire to moderate ad thus it would have been better to wear bright colors, but they're wearing pastels because the centrists can't abide what they've decided randomly is an "extreme".

        That's the problem with our so-called moderate centrists - they themselves are actually extremist in their application of their ideology.  I could write a similar satire of bipartisanship ideology - but it wouldn't be satire - it would probably make me cry.

        Today it was announced that Chris Dodd has removed the payday lenders from the reach of the consumer protection agency that he is setting up in the interest of bipartisan comity - Bob Corker is supported by these lenders and he has insisted that the payday lenders go unregulated.  WTF?  That is an irrational application of that principle.

        •  Yes, I know. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          inclusiveheart

          But sent myself through a thought experiment, which I don't regret - I like me some highly defined parameters, I do. I can still use my little finds as Socratic attack methods and can corral the bastards as needed, even if it's just for kicks.

          But, of course, my comment about which players you were referring to and their complete lack of moral compass stands.

          Because, of course, there are no rational parameters that apply right now to dealing with an opposition party. None.
          Of course we can imagine a rational opposition, but since we don't have one, fuck it. That means jack.

          We are back in the land of Robber Barons. And yes, "centrist" is a term of the propaganda, designating it's opposite. Lacking moral compass is the norm, demanding moral compass is now an extreme position to be fighting for. This narrative took a while to build, it was carefully crafted, and undermining this narrative is Promethean, but less romantic and more pointless...

          And our leader, the Compromiser, is, I fear, compromised.

          And Corker is 'my' rep; he had and has all of the Nixon Boys administration's servers in Chattanooga, btw. He belongs to them. Having him design regulatory policy is just feathering the foxes prominent nest in the hen house.

          We've been hijacked, and that's all there is to it, until we decide what to do about it.

          "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

          by Unduna on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:12:18 AM PST

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      •  Oh and... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens

        The big fish is the commenter who basically said STFU we moderated do know best - just above your original post.  You write satire and someone always comes in and blows it by being a "real" example of and extreme.  It was pretty funny - or sad depending on how you look at it.

        •  I can be slow, just so you know. :) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          inclusiveheart

          I have a tendency in written-land to take things a bit too much at type value. It's a consistent weakness of mine. Too funny. Great response; but the poor thing is right, just for another dynamic altogether.
          I was, I admit, truly baffled.

          Thanks for understanding my trip around the mulberry bush; I've been on post-surgery pain meds, too, and that shades things...

          If you come up with a plan for retaking the ship of state, please let me know, eh?
          Mmmmhm.

          "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

          by Unduna on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:19:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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