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View Diary: Help Connie Saltonstall Defeat Stupak (319 comments)

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  •  gustynpip seems... (1+ / 0-)
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    claude me to be more upset that people are pointing out the "flaws" in Yoopers than having a rational discussion of the pros and cons of a challenge to Stupak.  It's a common affliction amongst many from there in the same way that decent Christians get defensive with critics of the wingnuts instead of being pissed at the people who've hijacked the religion.  

    If one isn't called out by name and you don't behave like an inbred yokel, then it's not about you.  But don't deny that the mentality in the UP isn't ridiculously backwards at times (read: most of the time). Heck, I'm from there and I know how baffling the thought process can be.

    •  I understand. (1+ / 0-)
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      Like the UP, northern NM is a little world unto itself, and we like it like that.

      don't always believe what you think...

      by claude on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 10:54:04 AM PST

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    •  I'm not quite sure I get your drift here. (1+ / 0-)
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      Yes, I'm upset that people are stereotyping the UP when it's like the majority of the country in most ways.  Backwards as compared to NYC or LA, but not to the majority of the country.  And so I get a bit defensive when people makes unnecessary derogatory remarks about it because it makes them feel superior.

      I don't see how that's similar to "decent Christians" (whatever that means) getting defensive with critics of wingnuts rather than the wingnuts.  Do you honestly think I'm supposed to get angry with whoever might have led to the beginning of the stereotype and forgive those who are doing the stereotyping?  It's not the same thing at all.

      Finally, when someone addresses the attributes of a Stupak primary with something of substance, I respond to it with a discussion of that issue.  However, when someone responds with silly stereotypes, I address that stereotyping; I don't go off on a different subject entirely.

      Perhaps you've spent too much time in the UP and so have accepted that we're somehow different from most of the country.  I've done a lot of traveling and know full well that vast swaths of the country are at least as backwards as this area.  We're not as special as we like to think.

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 11:34:24 AM PST

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      •  No, we're not special.. (0+ / 0-)

        ...but there are regional differences that are notable.  Your desire to defend against things that are realities is like spitting in the wind.  Sitting and arguing about known facts is exactly the same.  

        And again, I have to sit and argue with you about things that are irrelevant.  I've lived in two countries and numerous states over the may make me more "worldly" but it doesn't change the fact that Saltonstall is what Yoopers call a Troll, she has no familial relationship ties in a county that has a significant amount of the entire population (unless someone tells me different, which then I'll gladly say that I'm wrong) nor does she have that "something" that makes people want to vote for her in the primary or succeed in the general.  (aside: Although I give VickiStein props for coming up with a plan down below that at least is realistic and based on facts of the area)

        Arguing that Stupak losing to teach him a lesson for being a tool is going to change things at a national level I expect from people who don't know the area.  You arguing about it when you've got your head in the sand because you don't want to admit that the UP hasn't changed much since the early eighties...not even as a vacation destination (the same former Ford middle management folks still have property on Big Bay De Noc that they did going back to the seventies.  Well-off Chicagoans go to Vilas or Door County in Wisconsin.) and that there's not a certain mindset up there because you don't want to admit it's the land that time forgot and the majority of the population likes it that way is just ridiculous.

        •  Have you ever heard that it's possible to (0+ / 0-)

          disagree with someone without being disagreeable?  And without making personal attacks?

          First, you don't have to waste time arguing with me at all.  In fact, you don't have to waste time reading my posts even.  You're choosing to do that of your own free will.

          Second, I've already acknowledged that Saltonstall not being a Yooper is a huge disadvantage to her, simply because we already feel that we're underrepresented and so like having one of us in DC.  However, acknowledging that is not the equivilent of accepting that the UP is so much more backwards than the rest of the country.  Those are two completely different issues, and by conflating them, you might think you're making a point, but it's failed.

          I don't have my head in the sand and I do know the area has changed dramatically since the 80's.  Perhaps you haven't, I don't know.  But I lived here in the 80's and before the 80's and now, and it's changed at least as much as most rural areas around the country have.  That would include the South, the Southwest, the Mideast.  There might have been more changes in the West and East, but I doubt it.  

          However, if it for some reason makes you feel good to think that the UP is different than anywhere else, feel free.  It's certainly your right, as it's might to believe differently and to believe it would be better to have anyone but Stupak holding that seat.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 12:04:34 PM PST

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          •  Whatever. (0+ / 0-)

            Strawman is made of straw.

            You're right I haven't been polite to you but you seem to have a desire to claim to be the most knowledgable of the area (as in your many defenses to other people besides myself).  I asked you if you were a member of the Delta County Dems...and I told you the maiden name of my family.  Why don't you go do a Google search and come back to me.  I'll wait while you do that.


            Done?  Yeah, so in the interest of that, I only speak for myself but don't tell me what I know and don't about the UP because my eyes might roll so much that they end up in the back of my head.

            And now I'm through with you.

            •  I've never claimed to be the most knowledgable (0+ / 0-)

              person in the area; I've just suggested I'm more knowledgable than those whose knowledged has been acquired through having relatives here or through an occassional visit, making silly stereotypes about an area they have so little knowledge of.  

              You had no right to request identifying information from me and my refusing to provide that online is not only appropriate, but wise.   And why would I want to do a Google search for you?  This is an anonymous site, and I prefer not only to remain anonymous, but to leave anyone else doesn't state their name anonymous as well.  If you choose to provide information, I might think it's foolish, but I'm not going to begin stalking you through the internet to obtain more.

              I love your last line.  When someone flouces away, determined to have the last word by informing the other person they're "through", it's always so cute.  I'm going to have to go back and refresh my memory on which one of the several people making silly stereotypes about the UP you are. I had the idea you were actually working in DC now.  But I'd think someone working there would have both better arguing skills and more maturity than you've exhibited.  

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 12:40:52 PM PST

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      •  meanwhile: (1+ / 0-)
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        My question was, is Saltonstall, from Charlevoix, considered a Yooper, despite being from below the bridge?  Also, is there a detectable difference between Yoopers from north of the bridge and others in MI-1 who live south of the bridge?

        don't always believe what you think...

        by claude on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 11:57:52 AM PST

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        •  I think you might have better... (0+ / 0-)

          ...odds if the candidate was a lifelong resident of Green Bay.  They could use living near Lambeau Field as a selling point.

          •  Finally. A true indication of your opinion of (0+ / 0-)

            people living in the UP.  It's also so refreshing to see the true colors coming out.

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 12:41:38 PM PST

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            •  You can't deny it. (0+ / 0-)

              If people in the UP had a choice of voting for the person from under the bridge as opposed to the person from Green Bay, I can bet you hands down that they would vote for the person from Green Bay.  

              I mean you do know the history of where you live where back in the seventies the UP almost became part of Wisconsin because the values and culture was more in line with Northern Wisconsin than Lower Michigan right?

              •  I guess you don't know the history of the UP where (0+ / 0-)
                still talk all the time about becoming the 51st state.  In fact, we've been talking about it since before there was a 50th state.  

                Our INTERESTS are more in line with northern Wisconsin that the lower peninsula.  Has never had the slightest thing to do with culture or values.  We feel (and are) neglected and ignored by Lansing, where few have a clue what the UP is like.  When our current governor came to visit (which few have bothered to do), she was astonished that we have to travel on two lane roads throughout the area.  That's how little knowledge even the top people have about our area.  And that's why we like the idea of having a Yooper as a Rep and why Saltonstall will have an uphill battle no matter yet, being from Charlevoix.

                "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                by gustynpip on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 01:22:55 PM PST

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                • I understand the... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...51st state "Superior" deal.  That's been more pie in the sky than when it was discussed to become part of Wisconsin back in the seventies.  Try again.  

                  Plus culture is absolutely part of the equation for the push because at one time the logging and paper industry unified both sides of the state line and hunting and fishing and population and all those things that make up the values and culture of an area besides interests.  And if you don't think Northern Wisconsin doesn't have the same complaints about Madison, you'll know why that was a stupid argument to make.

                  And yes, I know about Granholm's visit personally from the people that showed her around because as you gave a bunch of excuses why you couldn't Google, it would have shown why I had first hand knowledge...but you know better than I do.

                  But again, this is you arguing strawmen.  Since it was bandied about that smmsmm57 was really sooper sekritly Stupak, are you sure your last name isn't Casperson?

                  •  Of course it has been pie in the sky. Doesn't (0+ / 0-)

                    mean we can't have fun with it, and we do. And of course northern Wisconsin has the same complaints about Madison.  Why else would they enjoy talking about joining us?  Sheesh.  Do you think things through at all before you type?

                    Do you even have the slightest understanding of what a strawman is?  You keep tossing out the word when you have no legitimate argument, but when you do, it's in totally inappropriate spots.  A strawman is not a position you don't agree with.  

                    Just because you're not getting your way doesn't make my not having enough interest in you to google you any kind of "excuse".  I don't need one.  There's no requirement that I know anything more about you than that you're unable to converse like an adult with someone you disagree with without becoming angry and making silly personal attacks.  Why would I want to know more about someone like that?   Heavens, that's the kind of person I try to stay away from except for the occassional lazy day I get a kick out of seeing how truly silly they can become.

                    "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                    by gustynpip on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 02:01:19 PM PST

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        •  Oh, no, no, no. She's a troll. (0+ / 0-)

          Anyone who lives "below" the bridge, i.e. in the lower peninsula, is considered a troll.

          In all honesty, the whole Yooper/troll thing is a joke with us all, with just a little bit of truth in it for us.  Yoopers feel very under represented and the reason Saltonstall will be hurt by not being a Yooper is because we love the idea of having at least one Yooper in DC.  It's our tiny bit of pride.

          I really couldn't say whether they're the same.  I've never lived there or spent significant time there; just vacationed there.  My guess is since the area is mostly pretty rural also, it wouldn't be much different.  Perhaps a bit less independent, but otherwise probably much the same.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 12:15:11 PM PST

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