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View Diary: Don't Ask, Don't Tell? Don't Care (147 comments)

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  •  Covered in the story. (0+ / 0-)

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 01:37:39 PM PDT

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    •  Nope. Diary promotes wrong frame for issue. (0+ / 0-)
      1. The diary simply repeats the poll results with no mention of issues or history such as Truman with blacks (he didn't poll vets who likely would have opposed it).
      1. The diary promotes the entirely wrong frame.

      Gays are already serving, the "veterans" already had no problems serving with them. Why ask the question and promote it as a reason for equal rights? Military is already significantly (10-20%) gay and with no functional problems related to gays in military.

      Better to have published Adm. Mullen's cut to the chase comment:

      "No matter how I look at the issue, I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy which forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens," Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the Senate Armed Services Committee."

      •  Nearly seven weeks ago ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        ...we covered Admiral Mullen's comments (and Gates's) on the Front Page.

        The Vet Voice poll included 46% of active-duty, National Guard, Reserve and Individual Ready Reserve military. Forty-nine percent had completed their military service.

        I would love to see you back up your claim that as much as 20% of the current military is gay or lesbian. Any reference at all for this fantasy figure would be welcome.

        I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

        by Meteor Blades on Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 03:52:06 PM PDT

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        •  66,000 gays and lesbians serving. That's 2% of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades

          the military. This seems to be the "accepted" number using the data that is available.

          "...fighting the wildfires of my life with squirt guns."

          by deMemedeMedia on Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 04:17:58 PM PDT

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        •  Military being 10-20% gay...just a WAG. (0+ / 0-)

          Figure general population is 5-10% gay and military has always appealed to gays for a lot a reasons, same sex mostly until recently, cover (Marines high percentage based on boot camp dismissals for example), Western tradition, no family obligations, mobility, belonging, fitting in...all would boost gay population in military.

          Even at general population of 5-10% the "are you OK with it?" is moot as clearly they are OK with it. They did it, knowingly or unknowingly.

          The problem with "Vets give permission" diary like this is that it promotes vets as gatekeepers to equality which is wrong, just as it was wrong with blacks and women.  Even less so with gays since they have always been there. Same issue with "Vets approve/disapprove Iraq or Vietnam war" type polls. That's not the yardstick.

          As Adm. Mullen noted, only real question with gays is does military continue to require lying by gays and straights or not. There are no integration or function issues.

          •  The diary reports on a poll commissioned ... (0+ / 0-)

   a group of former military members of both serving members and veterans to see if views held widely by opponents of getting rid of DADT are accurate. The poll is another piece of proof that those view are not accurate. It's not the aspect of the story, it is a single data point. I happen to agree with Admiral Mullen, but what has to happen to get rid of DADT, as I am sure you are aware, is that Congress ultimately has to act. That will happen only as the myths about how this change will affect military performance are shattered. The poll goes part of the way to do that.

            I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

            by Meteor Blades on Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 04:39:13 PM PDT

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            •  It's a Praetorian Guard mentality. (0+ / 0-)

              Idea that military determines who is the general, what wars we fight, who serves.

              "what has to happen to get rid of DADT"

              Not really, Obama can over ride every single gay dismissal in which case DADT ceases to exist for the next four to eight years. Truman's example with racial integration. Facts on the ground trump all.

              Which is what Obama should have done immediately. Then let Congress dither as military changes.

              •  Well, on this we don't disagree... (0+ / 0-)

                ...As an interim measure the President could stop discharges on the grounds of military necessity, just as the Palm Center has been saying for more than a year. But the key word I used was "ultimately," and ultimately Congress has to repeal DADT. Softening up the members with polls like this and studies like the one of foreign militaries in that Palm Center link will, I believe, accomplish the job.

                I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

                by Meteor Blades on Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 05:23:39 PM PDT

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