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View Diary: Kansas just declared open season on students, professors, and liberals w/ update (318 comments)

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  •  The well worn out cliche... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ColoTim

    guns don't kill, people kill.  Yes, you are right. Guns just make it easier for people to kill. One click of the trigger and its all over.  

    "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

    by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:41:58 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Correct. That's what makes them so useful. (4+ / 0-)

      A disabled old lady can put forth the same (or more) dangerous force as a tough young linebacker.

      We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

      by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:45:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "A disabled old lady"? Are you... (0+ / 0-)

        batshit insane?  Do you think a disabled old lady is going to see a young tough linebacker tackling her before she can draw? You are aware that this is a website for liberal progressives that generally favor strong gun control laws right?

        "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

        by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:51:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are wrong, you know that right? (6+ / 0-)

          Being a democrat doesn't mean you are for gun control. Hell, angry mouse and meteor blades have put forth pro-RKBA tracts before.

          I think a disabled old lady with a gun has a better chance than a disabled old lady without one.

          We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

          by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:52:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Did I say anything about Democrats? I think I... (0+ / 0-)

            said liberal progressives.  I am more than aware there are a number of Democrats who are gun enthusiasts.

            "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

            by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:03:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  this website is a Democratic website not a (4+ / 0-)

              liberal progressive site as you claim. read the FAQs

              •  buddabelly... (0+ / 0-)

                I did not say this was not a Democratic blog.  Quit putting words in my comments.  I said that this blog was for liberal progressive. Yes, moderates and conservative Dems are welcome here, but they are rather conspicuously absent.  You might notice that virtually all the main issue like healthcare, GLBT rights, finance reform, climate change are dominated by liberal, progressive thought.  So regardless of what is stated in FAQS, this site is liberal and progressive.

                "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:01:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Just for the record... (9+ / 0-)

                  ...one can be a left-progressive, a democratic socialist, in fact, as I am, and still believe in people's inherent right to self defense. That includes the right to own and carry a firearm.

                  I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

                  by Meteor Blades on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:08:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Re: (0+ / 0-)

                    Did I say that progressive leftist could not support gun rights? I said that a most liberal, progressives favor gun control and restrictions on the carrying of firearms, particularly on college campuses, schools, and government buildings.

                    "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                    by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:14:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am not dissing you NellaSelim ... (8+ / 0-)

                      ...but when you say things such as "Guns just make a bad situation catastrophic," I am going to argue with you. We can all hope for and work for a world in which war and interpersonal violence are vastly reduced. But as long as violent criminals have guns, and as long as the cops do, I, for one, am unwilling to surrender mine. I've been in situations where if good people had not had guns they would have been dead.

                      That being said, I am for strict gun-control laws. I favor required, intensive training and licenses for anyone who seeks to buy a gun. But I don't believe in arbitrarily issued licenses. Law-abiding citizens should not have to jump through political hoops - as they do in California - to acquire a permit to carry a firearm.  

                      I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

                      by Meteor Blades on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:26:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And... (0+ / 0-)

                        I have seen situations where the presence of guns resulted and a number of unnecessary deaths that would not have happened had the gun not been pulled.  More than one cop will tell that pulling a gun creates a hell of lot more problems than it has ever solved.

                        "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                        by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:30:33 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Ahh. (4+ / 0-)

              So Angry Mouse and MB aren't liberal progressives?

              Neither am I?

              Your litmus test is bull.

              We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

              by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:30:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  That's debatable. (6+ / 0-)

          You are aware that this is a website for liberal progressives that generally favor strong gun control laws right?

          You know, I've been here about 6 years.  And off and on I've seen gun-control arguments here.  There has seldom been an instance where I would say that the other liberals here all generally favor strong gun control - it's a topic which has been argued about back and forth for years, and most people (including Kos) have long since come to the conclusion that it's a dumb issue for Dems to push, since it does nothing but hurt us politically.

          Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

          by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:56:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  where's that kos quote on gc? nt (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shadan7, buddabelly, Tom Seaview

            We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:59:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  He's made several . . . (4+ / 0-)

              . . . over the years.  For a long time it was basically "it's a losing issue for Dems", and just in the last couple of months he made some comment "Gun control?  Who's pushing that?  It's a dead issue."

              But I have no desire to search through all his comments looking for specific links.  I suppose you could do an advanced Google search of the site and come up with some.  Maybe I'll try that.

              Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

              by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:05:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Are you speaking for kos? Really? It's a dumb... (0+ / 0-)

            issue because it hurts us politically? Really? I suppose healthcare reform was dumb issue because it hurt us politically? I suppose abortion rights was a dumb issue because it hurt us politically? I  suppose civil rights was a dumb issue because it hurt us politically? I suppose environmental protection is a dumb issue because it hurt us politically.  I could to go on about dumb issues but this is just a dumb comment.

            "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

            by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:01:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not kos, (6+ / 0-)

              and wouldn't presume to speak for him.  He's a big boy, and can speak for himself.

              But that's been his position.  And it has also been the position of a lot of a lot of folks here - just poke around all the diaries with "gun control" in the tag and you'll see amply what I mean.

              Why push something that a majority of states now think is unnecessary (more gun control), as evidenced by the growing numbers of states with "shall issue" concealed carry?  We're currently at 37 states that have that, many by popular vote.  Another 11 states have "may issue".  Numbers of Americans who have sought to comply with permitting requirements has now risen to approximately 6 million, and there hasn't been a bloodbath in the streets, as many predicted.  People just look at what has happened, and see that there is little or no need for strict gun control.  Pushing it is against our political interests, against the interest of personal freedom, and is at best a band-aid for dealing with much deeper issues which should be addressed (like poverty).

              Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

              by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:12:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  A majority of states whose... (0+ / 0-)

                legislatures are dominated by Republicans.  And there is still very much an epidemic of gun violence in this country.  Just because it does not get front and center attention in the news media does not mean that it is a dead issue.  CCW maybe one thing, but allowing people to carry guns onto college campuses is particularly troubling.  

                In Kansas, the university campuses are the where the highest concentration of liberal and progressives live and have frequently been the targets of protests and demonstration.  Local and state politicians have often criticized and attempted to cut curriculum at these campuses.

                In countries like Japan and Britain who have the tightest gun control laws, gun deaths are but a fraction of the gun deaths that occur in this country. So bringing more guns does not create greater security.

                "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:21:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  BTW... (0+ / 0-)

                just because kos does not care about gun control, if that is the case, and just this is his website, does not mean that a large number of other progressive do not feel gun control is a dead issue. kos does not discuss the Israeli/Palestinian issue either, but many people on this site feel very strongly about the issue.  We don't always discuss issues based on how kos feels.

                "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:30:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I never said we did. (5+ / 0-)

                  We don't always discuss issues based on how kos feels.

                  Yeah, believe it or not, I know that.  Everyone here knows that.

                  You asserted that this was a website for liberal progressives who generally support more gun control.  That isn't borne up by the far-ranging debates I have seen and participated in over the years.  There are a lot of pro-RKBA progressives on this site, including at least a couple of the front-pagers, and even Kos sees the issue as detrimental to Democratic gains at the polls.

                  Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                  by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:38:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  1st off... (0+ / 0-)

                    let kos speak for himself. Quit invoking his name and what his position is on the issue.  I did not say there were progressives for are pro-RKBA. But I have read several front page posts that were critical of relaxing gun control.  In fact, when the Supreme Court ruled against the District of Columbia, there were quite a few posts on that subject on this site.

                    "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                    by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:51:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Kos has spoken for himself. (5+ / 0-)

                      And I'll invoke the truth any time I want, thank you very much.

                      Yeah, there are some front-pagers who are for more gun control.  They too get a lot of comments that disagree with them here.  Just as those who are against more gun control do when they say something.

                      This place doesn't neatly fit into your little characterization as being generally supportive of more gun control.  Not at all.

                      Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                      by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:56:22 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you are not invoking the "truth"... (0+ / 0-)

                        you are invoking kos' name and his opinion as a strawman argument in this discussion about gun control.  You think gun control is a dead issue and you wish to give the veneer of legitimacy to your opinion so of course you bring kos into it whether he was interested in being part of the discussion or not.

                        "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                        by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:04:17 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That's absolute bullshit. (5+ / 0-)

                          Look, I'm sorry if you haven't seen or heard kos's comments, or are just willfully denying them, but calling it a strawman argument is just absolute bullshit.  I'm not invoking anyone's name in an attempt to do anything other than dispute your characterization that this site is "generally supportive of more gun control."  I haven't said that kos thinks that gun control is bad - he might very well agree with you that we should have more - only that he sees it as a losing issue for Dems.

                          And I don't need a "veneer of legitimacy" - just look at the pushback you are getting in this very diary, and you can see that there are plenty of others here who disagree with your position.  This is not a settled matter as far as this site is concerned, and your attempt claim that it is is what prompted my response in the first place.

                          Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                          by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:18:45 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  pushback? (0+ / 0-)

                            There are a number of comments on here from a large number of Kossacks who support gun control and restrictions.  There are just a few Kossacks like you who are posting large numbers of comments because clearly you feel strongly about the argument.  Judging from some of the pro-RKBA diaries my diary seems to being getting a few more recs and tips. What is clear is that this is a divisive issue.  And yes, when you criticize my position or statement and try to refute by representing what someone else opinion, that is a strawman.  Simply because kos may have a different opinion does not make my statements less true.  That is classic strawman.

                            "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                            by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:40:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Perhaps (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, fizziks, theatre goon

                            you should look up what "strawman argument" actually means.

                            I just checked: in the approximate time I have been here, kos has posted 19,897 comments.  I am not going to search through all of them just to post links which you will ignore.

                            Now you're agreeing with me: this is a divisive issue, even here in the heart of the Great Orange Satan.  Not just because myself and a few others have taken the time to post in this diary, but because there are actually a fair number of people on the site who, when voicing an opinion on the matter, actually tend to line up with most Americans about gun control.

                            Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                            by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:46:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sigh... (0+ / 0-)

                            Strawman -

                            This is my original quote:

                            You are aware that this is a website for liberal progressives that generally favor strong gun control laws right?

                             

                            This was your response:

                            You know, I've been here about 6 years.  And off and on I've seen gun-control arguments here.  There has seldom been an instance where I would say that the other liberals here all generally favor strong gun control - it's a topic which has been argued about back and forth for years, and most people (including Kos) have long since come to the conclusion that it's a dumb issue for Dems to push, since it does nothing but hurt us politically.

                            How does the fact that kos voicing his opinion on gun control issue refute my statement that this site is dominated by liberal, progressives who generally favor strong gun control laws?  kos is one person.  His view does not negate my comment. You brought kos up specifically because you sought to weaken my statement even though that had nothing to do with my premise.  That is strawman.

                            "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                            by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:01:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, KVoimakas, theatre goon

                            I mentioned, in passing, that even the owner of the site, who has helped to set the tone here, did not agree with your assertion that this is a website of participating people that generally favor strong gun control, and you see that as

                            A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

                            OK, got it.  

                            I take it you would only be happy by some kind of website-wide poll, and if the "favor strong gun control" option got 50% + one vote, then you'd feel vindicated?  

                            This is a contentious issue, even here.  Bill Clinton, in his autobiography, stated that he was sure that the AWB was responsible for GOP gains (i.e.: Democratic losses) in the mid-term elections in his first term and after, showing that Americans were not happy with increased gun control measures.  And the fact that more American states are now "shall issue" on CCW laws - because it is popular -  would also seem to indicate that "more gun control" is not a good policy for Democrats.  DKos is liberal-progressive, and with the ostensible goal of electing more Democrats, but we don't stray that far off the national demographics.

                            I'm happy that your tip jar got lots of tips.  That's great.  Everyone should get some positive feedback for things they are passionate about.  But look through the rest of your comments, and yes, you will see "pushback" in the form of few recs and plenty of comments challenging your statements.  That, right there, is an indication of just how contentious this issue is here.

                            Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                            by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:19:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You... (0+ / 0-)

                            misrepresented my argument and statement by claiming that kos says that gun control is a dead issue and dumb because it hurts us politically.  Again, simply because kos has an opinion does not refute my statement.

                            The 'pushback' is from relatively few Kossacks who are making a large number of comments. Remember you made the assertion about the pushback, I simply responded that I seem to be getting greater support in tips and recs than typical pro-RKBA diaries that I have seen and read.

                            BTW, gun control does not mean banning gun ownership.  But it does mean being able to restrict where guns can be allowed, who has access to them, and the kinds of guns.  That is an issue that is almost never brought up. To what level of firepower is it permissable to start restricting ascess?  Is it OK for someone to own a bazooka? A rocket-propelled grenade? How about a tank?  

                            In colonial times, gun ownership was about defending one's home and neighbors against the British and Indian forces.  Gun ownership was not thought of in terms of crime or criminal enterprise.  Contrary to popular belief, the  majority of American colonial settlers did not carry their guns on the persons beyond their home except as part of a militia.

                            "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." Stephen Hawking (1942- )

                            by NellaSelim on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:33:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, what would make you happy? (4+ / 0-)

                            Forget kos, then - he's just "one guy", no more or less important than the dude who signed up last week.  I'm curious - seriously - what would you consider to be more than a "few" Kossacks who are making a large number of comments?  You've got about as many people making pro- as anti- comments in this diary, and a number who are hard to determine either way, that I'll spot you - at most, you're looking at something like a 60-40 split.  And this diary is fairly typical of a general-interest diary focused on gun control.  Yeah, that's a majority of people, but there's a significant number who disagree, and I have seen that same dynamic play out time and again here over the years.  "More gun control" is not the slam-dunk you're trying to claim, even among this crowd.  And yes, it does hurt us politically, because it is at odds with what most of the country wants.

                            (I'm going to leave the questions about what the limits should be alone - it is a good and worthwhile topic, and I would actually even recommend a diary hosted by the dKos RKBA group, if you'd be interested in doing one.  Seriously, no snark - I think it would be a good discussion.)

                            Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                            by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:59:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hey, just FYI. I found the KOS quote. (4+ / 0-)
                            * [new] Who the heck (7+ / 0-)
                            is talking about gun control anymore? That issue is dead.
                            In fact, the only people that seem to talk about this are the wingnuts who claim Obama is taking their guns away.

                            by kos on Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 02:31:49 PM PST

                            linky

                            We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:58:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ah, bless you! (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly, theatre goon

                            (In an atheist kinda way, I mean.)

                            Yeah, I knew he'd made such a comment recently, but my time-sense of when that was couldn't come up with anything more specific.  

                            I tried poking around with Google, but the site simply has too much content and influence and I didn't have enough patience this afternoon.

                            Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                            by Shadan7 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:04:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I remembered that it was in one of our Thursday (4+ / 0-)

                            RKBA diaries.

                            I think the first one.

                            We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:08:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You do realize that some of the RKBA people (4+ / 0-)

                            tipped your jar right?

                            For the discussion, if not necessarily the views espoused.

                            We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:49:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  Are you aware (0+ / 0-)

            that there is a major difference between RELAXING a law that now exists, and IMPOSING a new restriction?

            Bill the Butcher was right. I am a nativist, and that is a progressive position.

            by numberzguy on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:43:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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